Truth in our Industry

Carlos, I could not have agreed more with your tweets yesterday regarding DJ, and yes you did say what most of us were already thinking. But then, after slamming someone for self promotion, you retweeted someone who said “I nominate @CarlosBaez for President!” I applaud you for calling someone out on hypocrisy, but be careful about setting yourself up as the Poster Boy for Truth. Most of us are usually guilty of the same things we criticize others for.

Just to let you know… DJ’s tour two years ago was the very first workshop I ever attended. I had no idea who anyone was in this industry. I think all of you are missing one of the biggest things that he created for me that night. COMMUNITY. I paid $99 to attend his workshop and it was totally worth it because in that COMMUNITY, I ended up meeting Sara France. I was then mentored by Sara for over a year and taught me evert thing I knew. During that same time I was shooting hasselblad in my college photo program and I learned how to shoot weddings from there…

I agree with you on the point that there are a few big name photographers who aren’t the best photographers in the world and there will always be a split between those of us who are true artists and those who are alright at taking pictures but regardless, they understand photography and they are helping the community & they are monetizing their brands.

Maybe YOU carlos, should teach a private photography workshop and invite those who you claim are not living the “truth”.

Historically there has always been a stable national population of wedding photography studios that was around 125,000. Every small town had one or two “Mom and Pop” established studios, big urban populations had many more of course. These established photographers all ran a business with the overhead of such a business. Then digital came along and suddenly the field was flooded with new wide-eyed young photographers. In 2009 alone approximately 100,000 new photographers entered weddings. In the basic truth of supply and demand economics whenever a supply exceeds the demand (needs) for that supply the price of the supply commodity or service drops. The established studios are suddenly faced with very low pricing from the newcomers who have no real business to run and minimal overhead. Along with that massive influx of new inexperienced wanna-be wedding photographers have come a group of opportunistic “photographic carpetbaggers” who see big money from artificially inflating their “buzz” resumes and selling high priced “education” to the masses. Most of them make far more money selling the dream than they do actually shooting weddings. Tens of thousands of new wedding photographers have been convinced by the opportunistic rockstar workshop leaders that there is big money to be made in weddings and they can get a piece of that if they attend their workshops and buy their DVD sets. Unfortunately, along the way these hungry new photographers have come into the business with very low prices trying to buy into the profession. They don’t have the overhead and operating expenses of the established studios but even worse they don’t have the basic knowledge on how to set prices to create a sustainable and profitable business. Most will fail but the rockstars will continue to pitch the dream to ensure that they will always be able to fill their seminars and sell their DVDs. When an established and experienced photographer tries to state an opposing viewpoint, not to criticize the new photographers but to actually help them by giving them real world information, they are called “grumpies” and the rockstars all rise up in anger trying to protect their gold mine. Thanks Carlos for being so outspoken n what is happening to our profession.

wait, wait..Let me see if I got this right: “…I paid $99 to attend his workshop and it was totally worth it because in that COMMUNITY,…” if by community you refer to other photographers falling in to the trap of believing what people with lack of validity and self promotion to enrich themselves, follow… then, WOW, I guess I’ve got it all wrong.

In that case then anyone can buy community.

I have made many good photo friends with out having to enrich any third parties, or buy their product.

As I have said…it is the wild west! Hold on for the ride and stay true to yourself, everything else will work itself out in time! I commend you Carlos and others who know the shoulders of those that we stand upon as photographers…please continue to feature those people here!

Not sure what a grumpy is, but have sure heard it talked about and don’t think that it has any place in our industry. There will always be those that hunger for information…only hope they seek out those that have the goods to share!

@Anna- I really need to correct you on something… I know that we don’t know each other very well but let me tell you that I make very little off “photographers”. I spoke at WPPI for free with showit, I teach at the photog shootout events every month for free to 50 photographers and I walk away with NO money for doing it and I teach photography to Photog Shootout attendees on weekends for FREE. By the way, I started shooting 3 years ago on film and I still do to this day. I’m not a “newbie”. Get your facts straight before you try and yell at someone.

I almost fell into the trap but the wonderful, experienced photographers on the Pictage forums brought me back to earth. All these big names like Jasmine, David, Becker, etc seem like they’ve got it all AND then some and they make it easy to buy into but when you step back and look at it, you realize everyone has a destination (goals) and we all have different vehicles that get us there. When I see photogs with workshop after workshop all I see is that those photographers have run out of clients and need to find money somewhere so they play off of their knowledge and sell to other photographers. Maybe these big names do have something to offer, but I think, realistically, you can get the same information with a non-big name photographer that does great work and has lots of experience. As for Stephen’s comments, out of the 15 or so comments on here I have a hard time thinking we all are missing the community part. Go to a PUG meeting, create a photography meeting group, meet for coffee, lunch, etc. Have shoot clubs. You don’t need to spend money on one of the workshops unless you see a benefit to yourself or your business.

Thank You for your support Jen. You are making a supporting comment to my words, right? I completely support your words… You DON’T need to pay big bucks for a workshop UNLESS it works for YOU and if it’s what you really need. I have never paid for a single workshop since the one I did years ago at DJ’s. I found everything I needed to learn from mentors, business college classes, PUGs & shooting groups. It worked for me and best thing of all.. most of them are all free.

Like Carlos and some others I have been a professional photographer for a very long time. In my case, my photography career spans over forty years, the last twenty of which were almost exclusively in weddings. I have lectured internationally and taught at some very prestigious schools like Art Center College of Design and Otis Parsons and taught hundreds of my own workshops. I say this not to brag but to put some substance behind my thoughts. What I know, because I was there, is that this wonderful profession of photography has ALWAYS supported and encouraged the newcomers. We who were more experienced have always given back and paid it forward. Yes, sometimes that was in a paid workshop format but that was not the majority scenario. Unfortunately what I see in today’s world is that while the latest “rockstars” try to make a case for the “new generation” giving back they rarely do so without a price tag attached. “Giving back” is not just offering high cost workshops and DVDs for sale. Hell, I hang out on some photographic forums doing my best to help others. I NEVER see these rockstars who try so hard to “give back” posting there at all. Maybe they are just too busy? Perhaps, but they always seem to find the time to pimp repeatedly on Twitter and Facebook about their new DVDs or workshop. The wedding photographers that want to learn need to learn how to qualify their potential instructors. Do so by not believing their “buzz” but by actually asking them how many weddings have they shot in the last few years or other pertinent qualifying details. Once you have a better idea what their experience is then you can make a learned decision whether to pay for their marketing information. Learn from photographers that have walked the walk and not just talked the talk!

@ Stephen I am really sorry, but you talk about how great it is to ( let me quote you) “…You DON’T need to pay big bucks for a workshop UNLESS it works for YOU and if it’s what you really need. I have never paid for a single workshop since the one I did years ago at DJ’s. I found everything I needed to learn from mentors, business college classes, PUGs & shooting groups. It worked for me and best thing of all.. most of them are all free….”

Yet you, yourself, offer these type of workshops:

http://www.stephenknuth.com/#/for-photographers/

I don’t want for you to think that I am attacking you, but IMO unless you have been in business for more than 5 years(actually shooting), and or you have an extremely successful business you don’t have the sufficient experience or knowledge to pass it to your “students”… IMHO

For the record …

Loving the dialogue here and listening. Because of Pictage’s place in the world it is sometimes possible for us to create the rockstar personalities through our own community functions. This is something we’ve been putting a lot of thought into recently and our philosophy is changing. We’re much more interested in putting people out there who you’ve said you want to hear from.

I don’t think David was trying to have me call you out Mark. He probably knows me well enough that he knows that wouldn’t be received well anyway. (I tend to like to make up my own mind about things!) To be sure, David has built a thriving business in Showit! and I have a lot of respect for that. But if you WERE a pug leader and you’d called him out on something that wouldn’t impact your status one way or another.

With all of this said, I’ve noticed a trend, and gotten a lot of emails, from photographers who have grown tired of this industry’s trend toward the promotion of overnight superstars. Perhaps the proverbial pendulum swings… Time will tell. In the meantime know that I’m stopping by and reading and thinking…

Onward!

I’m new. Some days I think I’m awesome. Other days I think I completely suck. But I’m here, and I guess everyone has a voice. I’ll share an email I wrote recently:

“I’m a new photographer. I just started last year. Sometimes I feel like I’m really criticized for being new and not knowing about the art and time needed as much as the seasoned photographers. At the same time, I am working non-stop to get my business running, since it is truly what I want to do.

At one point I wanted to start a cupcake bakery. It was a great idea for a day. At one point I wanted to be a professional organizer. It was a great idea for a day. At one point I wanted to be a wedding photographer. And.. the desire grew… and then it grew more… and then I started learning… and then I started reading more… and shooting more… and then I attended a workshop.

And then my money was taken, as I didn’t have anything (save some new amazing friends) to show for my investment. Actually – I got mad. That’s what I had to show for it – a little bit of anger and resentment. Boy, I sound awesome to hang out with. And now I’m really frustrated with a lot of the industry, since I feel like I was totally duped. Luckily, I’m smarter now, and thanks to people like (all of) you am really coming to my senses. I know a lot of other young photographers will fail because they’ll never find that. Hell, I might fail too, but I’m doing everything in my power not to. And since I feel like I was robbed, I wanted to congratulate (all of) you for having the guts to step forward and say something.

The person that held the workshop didn’t plan on sending out a feedback survey – until I requested that it be done because I had something to say!! I feel like that’s exactly what’s happening. “Rock Stars” love us until immediately after we’ve boarded our flight home – and then their ears go deaf to any criticism and everyone who attended either gets mad or continues to kiss their behind! And the majority of attendees? They do the latter, which is a shame.

So, I guess all in all, I kind of just rambled an entire email to you, so thanks if you made it this far. I am not an amazing photographer. Right now I’m just a girl with a camera who is trying to keep a business going for more than a year. I hope one day that I can say that I am both, but being young it’s hard. And now, I feel like I started in a community built on trust and relationships, but came to realize that it’s mostly just smoke and mirrors – at least with anything of “high attention” and an “amazing logo” and “software”.”

That’s all I have to say. I’ll accept criticism for it. I don’t know.

But at least I’m willing to say “I don’t know”

Now give me $100 *totally kidding*

Hi Leeann, I admire your candor and your drive. If I can be of assistance in helping you advance your photographic art and business please feel free to email me at rick@rickrosen.com. The same offer holds true for anyone else.

I’ve been waiting for something like this to happen! Thank you! I started out in photography about 5 years ago and decided to do something about my passion in January 2006 when I finally attended school for it knowing that you can’t start a business without having some knowledge of your equipment or having a little background information on the field one is getting into. I don’t remember there being a lot of these “rock star” photographers around when I started out, in fact a few of them started out after me. But I’ve had the opportunity to learn under a few amazing photographers in my first few years. Then I started to notice that people were charging for this(I’m not saying this is entirely bad)…I’m pretty young, but I feel that doing things the “old school” way is always best. Every year we get a few “newbie” photographers that ask to shadow us at weddings just to get a feel for the industry and we gladly allow them to come along. I’m happy to share any knowledge I can from my experiences, but I no where feel that I’m as great as some of my inspirations (patrick demarchelier, annie leibovitz) one day, one day. I’m glad this “movement” is in place, lets get some substance back in our industry!

Okay, first I love most of what is going on here. I love that people have a place to voice their opinions, so here is mine. Right or wrong, it’s just my opinion. Now that the disclaimer is in place I will proceed.

I have met several of the people who are so called “Rock Star” photographers, honestly, their work has never impressed me, their charisma and marketing ability have really impressed me. It’s what they say in marketing, create a need and then fill it. Do I think some of them should be teaching workshops, even for free, no I don’t. BUT I will say there is a market for these workshops, just because I wouldn’t attend does not mean it’s not good for everyone. But be realistic about what you are teaching and to what level of photographer you are teaching to.

Stephen, I don’t know you, I honestly have never seen your work and I will not tell you that you suck or are great because I don’t know. I will say I disagree with a lot that you say but I am open to hear your voice. I have met your mentor on several occasions, he’s very nice in person but I personally felt as though he was more of a salesman than a photographer or mentor. Just my opinion so I’m sure we will not see eye to eye. But why I bring you up is this, you’ve been doing this for three years, you are new to the industry, embrace it. This doesn’t mean stop teaching, it means you have so much more to learn. Look back at this moment 10 years from now and realize how much more you know and see if you still feel the same way. Just a thought, I’m not bashing you, I’m just saying things change with the time you spend in this industry including the way you feel about them.

And some of the AMAZING leaders in this industry right now are what I would call salesmen. They preach about things that can be read in books but have never really put them into practice. That is why several of us are calling for the “Truth”. I really like what Kenzie said, “lets get some substance back in our industry!” that is all I want, substance, not snake oil salesmen standing on their soap box promising the world.

Oh my goodness. I think you (and many of the comments here) have said what I have thought for a very long time. Well done.

Hey Stephen, I was kind of fighting for both arguments. I was basically saying if you felt it would better your business or photography then you would have to make that decision for yourself but that you don’t have to look to a “rock star” and spend a ton of money for help on improving your business or work. I think if someone steps back from the hype of these “rock stars” and makes sure they can make a clear decision about what is best for them then they can’t go wrong.

I also have to second what Leeann said. I’ve wanted to go to one of these workshops to “better my business” or “better my photography” but I stepped back and realized that I’d pay a lot of money, my work would probably just end up looking more like their work, and in the end I would have nothing to show for it except maybe some photos from a shoot or two which wouldn’t guarantee me any business or bookings. In the end, I decided not to go that route and to look for inspiration elsewhere.

Loving the dialogue here! Definitely bookmarked and will spread the word!

2009 was my first time attending WPPI and I have to be honest and say that a 10 minute conversation that my friend and I had with Carlos impacted me almost more then anything else I had heard. He gave us practical financial advice on transitioning from a 9 to 5 to full time photography business.

With that being said, I am in agreement that our industry is missing some substance. We have to stop and realize that most of the popular or “ROCK STAR” photographers are only popular and Rock Stars to other photographers. Our clients really don’t care about that to be honest. I have yet had one person that hired me based on my personality alone. It is always about the photography in the end. Yes your brand and marketing can get them in the door, but they are ultimately sold on your photography. I don’t think any one of us want to have a great personality but deliver sub par work.

There are so many tools in the industry that have made photography all about speed and quick turnarounds. I think before we heavily use actions, we should almost know how to create that same affect manually in Photoshop. And beyond that, our images really need to be good out of the camera. We rely on photoshop a bit to much IMO.

I cannot say that I have not gotten any good advice or information from other pros in the industry because I have truly. But we have to be our own people. WHAT WORKS IN ONE MARKET (MARKETING ETC) MAY NOT WORK IN ALL MARKETS.

I am sure that this site will get a lot of negative feedback and that’s good. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We are sort of stuck in the belief that if you want to be a leader you need to be saying the same thing as the “other” leaders. And if you don’t, you get talked about or blackballed. Not all leaders are going in the same directions. Let’s all commit to being great business people and incredible photographers. People that do come to us for help or information, let’s be honest and realistic with them.

Holy Crap! Reading those last 42 comments was amazingly fun. I have made it a point to stay off the forums and blogs lately and stay focused on my business and craft, but this place is going to be a hoot to visit.
So glad to see comments on here from people that I know, respect and admire.

Carlos: When you called me about a month ago, and told me you were launching this, I had no idea that it would strike such a cord in the industry. Bravo my friend.
Just don’t let this take over your life.
Rick Rosen: Great comments from a photographer with many years of experience.
Jim Collins: I so appreciate your commitment and honesty.
Rachel LaCour: You are a class act,’nuff said.
Mark Weisberg: You are a true professional. Peeps, this is a dude you should follow.
Mark Andrew Higgins: Keep up the good work, I grew up in Rhode Island.
J.Sandifer: I miss you.

OK, enough with the ass kissing and ball cupping.

Stephen Knuth: You seem like a nice guy. You are taking a lot hits on here. Right now you are an easy target. Hang in there, it’s a good way to build character. OK, here come my jabs.

I know Scarlett, she is a lovely girl and a pretty good photographer. I am happy for the two of you. Young love is so very innocent. It’s also a great career move, she has like 2000 more friends than you on facebook (no offense intended). Let’s keep the twitter mush on the low down though, I may have to stop following Scarlett, I keep throwing up in my mouth when I read her tweets.

Stephen, you have been shooting for 3 years. You ARE a “newbie.” It has been said that it take 10,000 hours to master a craft. Seriously, how many weddings have you shot on your own. You were lucky to have had Sara France as a mentor. She is a brilliant photographer/business person. She could give more workshops, but she is too busy actually shooting jobs
You have positioned yourself well and surrounded yourself with the right people for a career in photography, but not necessarily as a working photographer. Choose your path wisely grasshopper.
I have perused your work. You have a lot more to learn. Your actual photography is very average, somewhere in the middle, and we know what DJ says about the middle. I have confidence that you will ascend to the Rock Star status that you strive for,however,I do think it is a little bit early in your career to be charging other photographers $150 to have a cup of coffee with you, or $900 to spend the day with you.
Scarlett can do it because hot.
I think Becker waited at least 5 years until he started making people buy him his lunch.
May the Force be with you.

Photo Truth Be Told: As far as venting goes-
This is a great place for Newbies, Grumpies, Guppies, Brownies and Panties to Unite, I mean Ignite, I mean…oh WTF, you guys know what I mean.

Peace Out.

I am very glad to see so many people talk about this very touchy subject, and I want to apologize if at some point my coments seamed a bit harsh. It was not my intention to attack anyone specifically. That being said, I have to give credit to the same people whom I was previously refering to. They are marketing geniouses, they took a simpple idea and ran with it, it kinda took everyone by surprise.

@jcogliandro, I am like you… I have been in business for a short period of time, but I have a deep love for photography (I guess this makes me a newbie and a grumpy… is this even possible?). I believe that people, and I include myself in this group, are tired of the sugar coating and the pretty packaging. I believe, and I want, to see people with substance. I want to hear the truth, I want honesty.

IMO, I think that our industry has been unregulated for way too long, and with any other industry that has had this issue in the past, it is crumbling in.

I do believe that there are some amazing photographers with something to say,and I want to listen. I want to learn from them.

I also believe that there are many photographers that want to, honestly, help other photographers, and that have developed a product that will help others to achieve success (what ever success is of each one of us) with out having to attach their names as a selling point. Rachel Lacour, I think you are amazing and you have been able to do what I just mentioned.

I want REAL knowledge and REAL people!

wow, just came across this on twitter.

I think Rachel said it best.

“I’m hoping there are bridge-builders who will forge a path to the truth via reconciliation and mutual respect. Together, we succeed.”

What you’re trying to say is “Professor for a day – speak with forked tongue” Sadly this has been known for years, but there are a handful of good speakers on the circuit you just have to learn how to cut the bovine excreta from the fertilizer.

But come on people. I agree about truth and honesty but realistically we live in a post modern culture where truth and honesty is subjective (not that I agree with this). So how can you claim a truth about something just because you have been around for 25 years (not disregarding the wisdom of the business sense and the actual knowledge of what you know) but things change and like it or not this industry has changed. there is no going back but we can move forward and shift the direction.

To be honest I am glad that the young and new have stepped up into the leadership in many areas as they have brought a fresh face to the industry and in many ways made this job fun. If I had gone to a photography conference 15 years ago I am not sure I would have enjoyed the culture as much. in fact I did not want to be part of this industry ten years ago. But now I love it. I love the edge and the constant change. Like it or not it will continue to change fast and those who are willing to move it will move it in the direction they see fit. Many will complain that they do not like what is happening but in the end they will do nothing and the industry will sweep by them.

In the four years I have been a part of it is has moved at lighting pace and I in my 30s have struggled to keep up, but If I want to stay busy working I must.

The proclaimed self promoters are both photographer and business men and women. how can you dislike them for using the direction of the industry to make a profit? Do we all not desire to make a profit and if given a choice would we not want to be the ones in their position (whether or not we would take it in the direction they have is another argument) using our influence to make money for ourselves while trying to be something for the industry. Why can’t they make money from those seeking to learn and be apart of the industry. if there is demand for it (which there is) they are going to fill it. More importantly unless you know these people intimately how you know their motives? (not saying you all don’t). Please know that I am not defending the celebrity-ism of the above… but many people included in this argument have been seen self promoting their own agenda in one shape or form, just check twitter over the last few months. (maybe not in the large way someone like DJ has) but kudos to him for taking it to the next level for himself.
don’t like it move in and challenge it.

Just don’t attack someone’s character to do it. regardless of their motive you tell us more about yourself than anything by attacking the character of someone on such a subjective topic.

This is a business and art for many of us.

just some thoughts

I wan to thank everyone for keeping this important discussion civil and on topic.

I have been a professional photographer for a very long time. Consequently I have the awareness of our profession to use as a measuring stick. Historically, we all had to learn and turned to recognized professionals for their knowledge. While most of my career has not been in wedding photography, the part (20 years) that has was not taught to me in school. Until recently you could not take wedding photography courses in school. Brooks is just now adding an adjunct on wedding photography to their curriculum. Consequently, myself and everyone else had to learn from wedding pros on the circuit. In the past, the dark ages before digital, those seminars were presented by established professionals with at least 10 to 20 years of experience behind them. We respected them as established professionals and wanted to learn from them because of their experience and for the most part we were rewarded with valuable information. That information helped me and thousands of others build a wedding photography business from scratch.

Fast forward to the digital age. I am puzzled by the mindset of so many new photographers who seem to think that after a few years of shooting they are ready to give their own workshops. WTF? Is it pure ego? Arrogance? Is it a generational issue with that generation? Is it because there are so many thousands of even less experienced photographers who are willing to blindly and without logical evaluation throw their money at these guys? And I may step on some toes with this statement but is it a Christian thing? I notice that many of the rockstars and aspiring rockstars are quick to plug Jesus into their message. The bottom line is that it is very easy to fool a lot of the people a lot of the time when they know less than you and you also toss religion into your message.

Is our profession hurt by this new model? I think we all know the answer to that but I’ll give you one example. I met and got into a conversation at the PP of CA convention with a new photographer eager to build her business. As we talked I asked her for a business card, She dropped her head in shame and confessed that she did not have one. She then confessed that she was very frustrated trying to figure out her “brand” and until she got her colors and her look figured out she could not create her business cards or really get serious about her business. I then asked her what kind of photography she loved ans she said children and family portraiture. She went on to proudly say that she has already photographed a number of families kin her church who loved her work and she had others asking for her services. But she was putting them off because until she figured out her branding she could not move forward! She had obviously been to a few workshops where branding was the topic and drank the Kool Aid that was being passed around.

Here was a photographer that already had excellent work and new clients contacting her but was stuck in neutral because some rockstar had filled her head with crap about how important her branding and colors were. I told her that her “brand” was herself and her work and that she already had an established customer base with her church group and she needed nothing more to move forward. Obviously she had the talent and technical skills to create satisfactory images.

That is just one example of how these rockstars are hurting our profession.

I believe all this needed to be said out loud. Those of you who know me personally, know what I think of so called photographers who sell themselves as successful photographers to pad their pockets. In my eyes the real photographers are the ones who have worked hard over the years to perfect their craft regardless of what anyone thinks of them. From this point on I refuse to put anymore energy into photographer’s I don’t believe in. Right now it seems as if most photographers have a passion to see who can have the most followers whether it be through twitter, facebook, or other forums. Honestly I don’t have a care in the world about the amount of followers I have…. I just want to be inspired by photographers who have a true passion for their craft and try my best to inspire others to see what a great medium photography really is.

Now that truephototalk has everyone’s attention I would love it if “photographer’s” would stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and start putting their energy towards learning how to be true to themselves, whether it be an artist, business person, or both! And ask yourself….what photographer inspires you and WHY?

Kudos to everyone for using real names and speaking from their hearts!

I’m a “newbie” about 2 years (3 years if you count all the practice on my kids and my friends kids ) in of shooting seriously and only a couple months of doing it full time so I know I have tons to learn and my goal is to improve each session.

I never did any workshops but I read EVERY book that amazon has to offer you should see my ‘library’ and I practiced EVERY day on still objects and moving, etc.. I often WISHED I could have time to do a workshop now i’m SO glad I didn’t.

This year was my first year @ WPPI so not sure how it compares to other years what kills me is all the new people and their obsession with the ‘rockstars’ of photography. Lately it seems everyone is obsessed with OR talking badly about certain photographers.
ie Becker, Jessica Claire, David Jay, etc…

I’m not saying all these people are bad in fact, when
I did see Jessica Claire at the Shootsac booth (I love my shootsac and no I don’t work for them ) and I must say she was VERY nice and seemed very interested in what I had to say.
I also think her photography is great so I see why she has a huge following, I follow her blog and love it.

Never met Becker nor Jasmine but I do think Jasmine has a great writing style and I do love to read her blog. She seems real, of course I don’t know her so couldn’t say for sure.

As far as David Jay, I think he’s a marketing genius and I don’t see how that hurts anyone unless you buy something he’s promoting and hate it…but really you should do your own research and not press buy because a ‘rockstar’ says it’s great.
He seems very positive and I LOVE how he started photographers unite.

I did see a few ‘rockstars’ that seemed like they ‘deserved’ better treatment at wppi ie not waiting in line but somehow getting in first, and stuff like that and NO it was none of the above names mentioned but don’t ask me who either I not here to call out by names.

I can only comment on MY experience with photographers and the 2 workshops that I did in Vegas/wppi.

First of all they should have been called SHOOTOUTS NOT workshops just to clarify what I mean workshops are for learning right?!

I did Stephen Knuths he was a very nice guy and right before Vegas I got laid off day job so he sent me a twitter DM that he really wanted me and B to come to his workshop and if we wanted we could come for free. I was in shock how nice he was, but I told him no that I had to pay at least for one of us ( My hubby is my partner) I had all intentions to pay for both but ended up only paying for one. I had no clue he was as young and as new as he is but i’m sure he’ll go far with his drive.
He’s a very nice person and i’m sure will be an amazing photographer if he continues this business.
The ONLY thing I would suggest is IF he had another paid event call it a SHOOT-out, not workshop, but really who wants to pay for a shootout and fighting over the models.
All in All I will stand up for Stephen call him Honest and I truly believe he has the BEST of intentions. I think he’s real and I don’t think he’s out to scam anyone but I think he needs to learn how to do it the right way. Since he is so new in MY honest opinion if he feels like he can/should teach do it for free until he’s established.

OK on to 2nd Workshop AKA another shootOUT this one held by Scarlett Lillian. This was to be held in the Red Rock Canyon with a bride and groom.
I didn’t go thinking I was going to learn I went thinking I can get AMAZING photos of a bride/groom in the Red Rock Canyon. I figured for 214 after fees a piece so 450 for Brent and I to get some great shots AND see the Red Rock Canyon it was worth the money.
Again not sure why called a workshop when it’s a shootout.
I think it should have been free or everyone shooting could have split the bus cost considering the awesome models voluntered and we didn’t even go in the Red Rock since the bus driver said you had to pay, hmmm I think we would have happily paid that what? extra 10 dollars to be IN the red rock canyon so I got some great shots of a gorgeous sweet couple in the desert where you can see some of the red rock canyon. Again kinda hard getting that shot when everyone is trying to get SAME shot. so lesson learned. I wasn’t too upset but had I paid for a whole day or week what some have paid I would have been REALLY upset.

So my advice to anyone wondering about a workshop is ask lots of questions, don’t assume that because they have a cult like following they are better than YOU or even know more than YOU. What do you expect to learn? Ask them if you will be able to learn that at their ‘workshop’ ask LOTS of questions, this is YOUR money. Also if they have held other shoots ask for emails of others past attendees to see HOW it really was get the INSIDE Story, etc.. unless you have money to blow and just want to be ‘best friends’ with someone for the day because you are PAYING them to then please RESEARCH! Study their work what do you think they can ‘teach’ you? Please just ask lots of questions before you fork over you hard earned money!

Also i’ve learned the REAL superstars are the ones who Pay IT Forward and give their advice without charging or making you pay to shoot with them.

Such an interesting post.

I believe Rick put everything quite nicely in his first post of what is actually going on in our industry right now.

I too am shocked that I may be categorized as a “grumpy” because
a) I’ve been in business for over 10 years, have a formal photography education,

b) I’m sick and of 500 emails asking me to help the 500 new photographers in my market (I’d surly go out of business if I helped everyone that asked!)

c) I teach the ugly truth about what it takes to run a photography business/pricing/managerial accounting and this probably comes off as being “grumpy” about it! And you know I’m okay with that. If that’s the only way I can share the TRUTH about running a small business, so be it.

The truth is most of these newbie photographers are jumping into the market because the work and industry appears glamorous to them. Most have no idea that they need 50,000k+ worth of assets and overhead to get started, nor that they need to make over 10k per month in sales to bring home an income that’s probably less than the day job they just quit.

Many will end up going back to their previous careers once they find out the truth and learned the hard way, often after they’ve dumped way too much money into a very expensive hobby, and gone deep into debt. The influx of photographers is bringing down the standards of the industry as a whole. I do not say this blindly. I had FOUR different individuals tell me that a particular five-star hotel in Atlanta does not have ANY presentable pictures from 2009 because the photography is THAT BAD. It’s a common complaint from venues these days.

I’m glad we have new talent in the market, I’m happy to help those that are serious in investing time to establish businesses based on strong financial foundations and not undercutting the market. It just gives me a good laugh when everyone I know lately is opening their own photo business!

Amused, please put a name to a comment. It’s the only way that the conversation is legitimate and real.

And instead of pinpointing individuals and saying what you dislike about them specifically, can you name what you believe is wrong on a larger scale? I think you opinions in that arena would better benefit the greater conversation.

That’s my input for now – heading off to bed!

@ Amused…like everyone else I agree that you shouldn’t hide behind a fake name. Additionally this blog shouldn’t be about deciding on who is a bad photographer and bashing them. Have some respect, this should be a open discussion on what changes need to be made to our industry. If we truely want to make a change we need to education, not attack.

Interesting stuff. Apart for the cowards who are posting without their names, I’m impressed with the sincerity of the posts.

Something that did come to mind as I read, though, was CS Lewis’s comment on pride:

“I pointed out a moment ago that the more pride one had, the more one disliked pride in others. In fact, if you want to find out how proud you are the easiest way is to ask yourself, ‘How much do I dislike it when other people snub me, or refuse to take any notice of me, or shove their oar in, or patronise me, or show off?’ The point is that each person’s pride is in competition with every one else’s pride.”

There seems to be a lot of disdain for those in our industry who are teaching classes without having the “chops.” Like JCOGLIANDRO pointed out–who gets to decide when someone’s ready? In a post-modern culture, and worse, in an artistic field, where most things are subjective, it’s a slippery slope to start unleashing criticism.

Is 10 years enough? Is 20? Is it the amount of money they made? Is it the happiness of their clients? Is it their own satisfaction? Is it memberships in organizations? Is it awards for prints and photos? Is it a certain number of friends on FB?

This industry is no different than others in many ways; people define success this way or that, there’s winners and losers, there’s humble servants and egotistical abusers. This industry is made up of people, and as such, it’s broken. None of us are perfect, and the ones who get up and lead–for whatever reason, and at whatever level of qualification–end up being watched, criticized, demonized, worshiped, and all other manner of distortion.

They are all flawed, but they are not all charlatans. Some of them genuinely want to help people, and despite the fact that they may not have the photography or business skills that many of you have, they are succeeding in that goal in one form or another.

So does it matter, really? Do we need to tell everyone who is unqualified, or can we let the market make those decisions? Can we lay down our pride and let people do their thing? This industry needs more leaders, not more criticizers; and if you aren’t satisfied with the leadership that we have, then join or help them. You know the saying, “criticizing is easy–art is difficult.” I think being a leader is a very special kind of art, and it’s a tougher one to learn than photography because the stakes are higher when you make mistakes.

You mentioned, “we would like to showcase real photography and real photographers who have a dedication and conviction to upholding the craft and art of photography,” which sounds like a positive and excellent goal to get behind. I hope that’s what happens–though, even the mission statement has a proud edge in it. Instead of just saying “showcase photography and photographers,” “real” is in there to make sure people knew that you weren’t gonna showcase no poser. I think you can lose the repetitious “reals;” it’s not necessary to condemn in order lift something else up.

All the best to all of you.

$.02

I’m so glad this conversation has been started. A group of us were just talking about this topic recently and I think it’s a good thing for people to be able to share what they really think without being afraid of being ganged up on. I know a lot of people who feel like they can’t speak out for that reason and that’s never a good thing. No one should get blackballed for disagreeing with a “leader”, especially when the person in disagreement has a valid point.

And @Kevin, I second everything you said. We don’t need it to be an “us” against “them”. And I agree. The market will weed people out who are doing workshops or shootouts and not actually shooting weddings. You can see it easily on their blogs and websites and people will catch on. And if someone signs up for one of those workshops or shootouts without doing their research on the teacher then shame on them.

My friend Liene Stevens said recently on twitter that she believes that most people teaching workshops would go out of the workshop teaching business if they were required to show their tax return from the previous year.

okay back:

4) WHEN YOU GET THE ANSWER on what their earnings are/were and a TRUTHFUL explanation, then post it on twitter or your blog or here. For example: “I asked XXXX how much their business generated in wedding photography last year and they said $100,000,000. But I also know their ex-associate photographer who said that XXXX let me go because they couldn’t afford to pay the bills, etc.

True photo talk is very important to bring out something we all need to address. “Fluffy workshops” There are good workshops and bad ones and some that flat out lie. Be vocal because the best way you can pay-it-forward is to save your friends from wasting hard-earned money.

Gary Fong

I am nobody important! I am by no means some GREAT photographer I beleive my work is good and I beleive my work is always improving. I have been shooting for 5 years now and I still consider myself a newbie. Just let me say I got all caught up in the “ROCKSTAR” fantasy of this industry! And in the process I lost myself because I was too busy trying to be like the “Rockstars” I started following all the popular blogs and I still beleive “SOME” of these photographers are producing great work however I started noticing most of their work was all staged or from so called $800 spend the day with such and such workshops. Ones that at the time I even considered attending. Again I still think “Some” of these people are wonderful photographers. They are for sure great at marketing themselves!

What I hate more than anything though is the people who buy a camera and are all of a sudden considering themselves photographers. Espeically ones who are shooting in AUTO mode on their camera, or ones that don’t even know what the words apature, rule of thirds or even ISO means. They are out here shooting freaking weddings for $500 or $1k giving a cd and calling it a day. That just really freaking pisses me off!!! Again I am by no means this amazing photographer that I hope to become. YET!!!
But I do know how to shoot a correctly exposed photograph!!!

One of the most important things I have learned this year is… STOP trying to impress other photographers and work on always impressing myself and most importantly my clients. For those of you that are charging tons of money to allow photographers to spend a few hours or a day with you, more power to you it’s def none of my business what you do!

just a little side note.. please ignore my wonderful spelling skills!! they suck!!

With a deep sigh of relief…THANK YOU! This is a wonderful place that has given me hope. I have felt for a long time that the industry was being raped by opportunists who are devaluing the art and the blood, sweat and tears that go into building a solid, profitable business from your art.

And I believe it is the experience you have that enables you to create the experience you give.

In the end, what motivates me is how my photographs touches my clients…bringing them joy at the purest level.

what an unfortunate turn of events for what looked to be an interesting concept for a website.

this whole process of “calling people out” in less than 140 characters is foolish. what ever happened to having a conversation and addressing issues with an individual? dane sanders is not david jay is not becker is not jasmine star is not… on and on. social media has made us all far too bold and self-important and far too prone to generalization. the culture of our industry will not be changed via mob-mentality with some anonymous twitter bully at its helm. carlos, i respect your work and your experience, but your methods are disappointing. why the vitriol?

GRUMPIES: this needs to be addressed, as a lot of unnecessary, undue hate is being shown to Dane Sanders around this idea. avoiding the “grumpy” trap (and the fast track philosophy as a whole) has nothing to do with ignoring the work of the masters. it has nothing to do with diminishing the incredible hard work and accomplishments of long-time professionals or trying to push them from the field. in fact, the length of time one has been in the industry or the level of skill or success is not even a part of the equation. you (and other respondents) are taking offense to something you clearly haven’t made any attempt to understand.

in his book, Dane defines the GRUMPY FACTOR as: The degree to which you measure your success relative to how others are doing (e.g., if others are flourishing, you feel as if you’re failing. If others are struggling, you feel as if you’re gaining ground)

grumpies are people who aren’t open to change – who aren’t open to dialogue – who aren’t open to community – veteran pro or fresh out of the box newcomer. grumpies are people who put others down to raise themselves up.

is the “rock star” culture silly and unproductive? of course it is. but the hate that’s been flying this past week is far more destructive. we can be champions of change without resorting to such shameful tactics.

It’s kind of scary around here but I might as well give it a shot. I’m a new photographer in the midst of the chaos of my first year. I started shooting professionally around November of last year. It all started rather organically. A friend saw pictures that I took for the love of photography, for the love of the city of New York. She saw these and asked me to shoot her. I did for that same love of photography. I was nervous and was very aware of all that I did not know. Slowly I started getting requests for pictures and this idea of a business emerged. I still find it hard to consider myself a professional photographer because I’m still aware of all that I do not know. My best education has been trial and error. Shooting, learning my camera and learning my clients. In the early months I found myself looking through what you call “rock star” photographers. I wondered how they got to be there. It’s so easy to get caught up in all the glitz and glamor. I even toyed with the idea of attending a workshop but don’t have the financial means.

I think what’s lost in this back and forth, and I can only speak for myself here, is that a lot of newbies do start because they love photography. I love being entrusted with documenting a person’s life whether it be a simple day with family, a milestone birthday, or their wedding day. I shoot for them. I know a workshop can’t teach me to listen and to see who my clients are (in my case they are kids, families, couples, the sunset, graffiti, anything the lets me tell a story).

I am in no means out here to make a fast buck. I’m basically working two jobs while building this business. I know that I have so much to learn. I am constantly humbled by photography. I bust my ass daily to learn as much from the masters as from myself. I see all that is going on in this industry and try to take care of what I can. All I can do is make myself better, continue to learn as much from my surroundings, my experience, my clients and myself as from others in the industry and those who made photography what it is.

Not everyone who is new to this industry is out here to become a rockstar. I couldn’t care less about that. All I care about is making my clients happy, taking good pictures that garner an emotional response (hopefully not gasps of horror!), that help people remember, that will be treasured for years. Everything else just falls by the wayside. You’d be surprised at how many newbies feel the same way.

It’s unfortunate that there are so many splits in this community but it doesn’t surprise me as it’s common in any industry. I think that there is no right or wrong answer to the situation; only mere opinions.

How can you fault someone who has a heart to teach and has followed that passion into a full time basis. I think a similar term for those types of people are called consultants and there are consultants in every industry.

But then again how can you fault someone that values photography as true art and is disgusted with seeing their trade being hoisted as the next big “freedom” job with easy access to replicating someone else’s success.

I’m with Kevin on this though… The market will decide who is qualified enough… The only other option is have the gov’t step in and create regulations for us… I’m sure they’d LOVE to do that since they are so good at it. :-\

note to knuth… don’t know you but you seem like a good kid… I don’t blame you for taking advantage of your situation… heck, I would. But dude, arguing or defending yourself shows that you aren’t confident in what you’re pursuing. Do your thing and don’t sweat what people have to say about it. it’s kinda like having to explain to someone why your picture is good… some people just don’t care cause they already have an opinion. Witness with your life and nothing more.

by the by, I’m only in my 3rd year.. I know I’m a newbie… but I don’t ever want to consider myself a know all master of my craft b/c that means I’ve become content with what I do… and I personally don’t think I could learn everything i want to learn in just one lifetime… Here’s to ALWAYS being a newbie and ALWAYS continuing to perfect my craft.

Oh and I also had the pleasure of sitting in on a talk that Z. Arias gave and to summarize in a few short words: Practice your craft and figure it out. Don’t rely on copying a workshop presenter’s work or success. Be your own person and develop your own style with your own creativity.

My .02 as well… please don’t hate me.

While I agree with some of the arguments throughout the last few days, I don’t really see how this is being productive for us as individual businesses or for our industry as a whole. Those of you who are knocking on the “rock stars” what have YOU been doing to further the idea of community and thus our industry? Because I don’t think sitting on an open forum and pointing fingers at those who have become successful (by whatever means) is really all that productive.

Do they DESERVE to be where they are? Some, probably not. But they are there. So are you going to choose to be pissed off and name-call and point fingers, or are you going to use that frusteration with the current “rock-stardom” status and push yourself above their level?

Are you jealous that you aren’t well known like these other “rock stars”

HOWEVER.

When I first started out as a photographer, I wanted to be a child photographer, unitl I realized I don’t like other people’s kids. Wedding photography fell in my lap, I didn’t plan on being a wedding photographer. Until June 16, 2007. It changed my life. I was HOOKED. I read, practiced, watched, whatever I could get my hands on to make myself better.

But I’m gonna tell you, I’m SUPER frustereated right now. My business is not growing like I had hoped. I went to Scarlett’s workshop in February and while I might not have learned much from a technical standpoint, I did learn that marketing yourself is just as important as the photographs you produce. And so I went on a soul searching journey trying to figure out my branding, my logo etc etc. yet, I’m still stuck. I have eight weddings for the year. EIGHT. What am I missing? What am I not doing? Am I priced to high for my area? I’d like to think not. I’m about $1500.00 less expensive than some other photographers. They are amazing though, so I think they are worth the money they are charging.

I’m frusterated beyond belief. I think I’m good at what I do. I LOVE what I do. I’m different than most of the photographers in my area, and yet…the clients are not coming. So this”fast track photographer” or the “rock stars” out there are seriously bummin me out because I look at some of them and I think, “eh, I just don’t think they are that great” or “what do they have that i don’t?”

Does anyone have any thoughts? Any suggestions? At the moment, I’m the only one bringing money into my home. My husband lost his job in August. Last year I did 15 weddings and this year I have 8. Actually 6 because I had a couple cancel for various reasons.

I have NEVER sold prints after a wedding. yet friends of mine from Fort Wayne have sold THOUSANDS. Any suggestions? Most of the clients have either purchaed the DVD later, or it has come with the collection they purchased. Is that why they aren’t buying prints?

My top end package is $3200.00, of that $1300.00 is in product and paying my second shooter, so I make around $1900.00. Is that an acceptable rate? I wish I could charge more for the amount of work I do for each wedding. I totaled up the hours I spend working on a wedding from start of contract to delivery and it is about 40 hours give or take. So that ends up being about $47.00/hour that I get paid for one wedding. Which isn’t bad, I’m ok with that. IF I had a lot of weddings.

Sorry for the long response, but the “venting” I just did is what I hope will be hlped from this forum and not the consistent bashing of others in our industry who are successful whether because they are truly talented photographers or they just marketed themselves to be.

Thanks for any advice and/or suggestions.

BTW, I meant to direct that last comment towards Barb.

this blog and posts just reminded me how much I love wedding photography, and how much I hate wedding photographers.

that was my point, jim.

Stephen love your work, but… you hate ALL wedding photographers? REALLY? Hate’s a pretty strong word and you haven’t even met ALL wedding photographers to really pass judgement on each individually. Anyway.

“this blog and posts just reminded me how much I love wedding photography, and how much I hate wedding photographers.”
Quote de Stephen Karlisch

Okay, now THAT’S funny.

Yes, this is all very silly. Picking a big fight to tell everyone that people who are not relevant in the photography industry are….not relevant in the photography industry. We all already know this. It reminds me of a few years ago when a bunch of kids on the Internet decided to have protests against Scientology to tell everyone Scientology is a cult. Really?! What’s next, do we need an angry tirade about how the clowns on The Hills aren’t good actors?

David Jay is a software vendor, and his software works well. I bought ShowItWeb to put slideshows on my blog. Works great. Thanks DJ! But I don’t think anyone is going to DJ for photography advice.

Do we really need fake twitter account insults to let us all know it might not be a great idea to pay for photography lessons from people whose warranty on their first SLR hasn’t expired yet?

The only real problem is that some new photographers get off to a bad start by following poor advice, and the way we fix that isn’t by personally insulting the reality show photographers, it’s by guiding new photographers into worthwhile educational opportunities and sound business practices. Lead by example, and spend more time building a repository of good advice and inspiration than…I don’t know…making fun of clowns because they have pointy shoes and Ed Hardy shirts.

Jess, Scarlett is bad at business. She started life as a videographer and then switched to photography with a bag full of gear that her parents bought her. Her condo wasn’t bought by her. Neither was her car. It’s not hard to “make money and be so fab successful!” when you’ve never in your life had to pay for a single thing yourself.

If you look at her blog posts from the past few years note how many of them were for friends from high school, people she knew already, etc. Note how many weddings she has NOT been blogging lately while she’s been running around the country trying to find someone to marry her.

How can you learn business from someone who has never had to support themselves? How can you learn business from someone who only books weddings of friends? How can you learn business from someone who DOES NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT?

Not a fan of SL please USE Your real name and don’t personally bash this is for the TRUTH and to be CIVIL also the above poster
I don’t think who paid for her condo has ANYTHING to do with photography and workshops and posting records here is just wrong, Please keep this on topic and NOT personal if you have a personal problem email them directly. I don’t think Carlos opened this forum for posts like that.

I think there is nothing wrong that saying that Scarlett Lillian is “bad at business”. In her workshop she promised to teach photographers how to market themselves and how to run a successful business.

First of all, marketing to photographers is not the same as marketing to brides. Who cares how many photographers think you’re cool? That doesn’t mean anything when it comes to booking actual paying clients, of which Scarlett doesn’t seem to have many. Saying “Oh get on Facebook!” doesn’t do ANYTHING for your business. Nothing. “Oh, get other photographers to know you!” doesn’t help you book a dang thing if those newbie photographers have no work and no influence of their own. It might make you the queen of popular-in-your-own-mind-town but won’t have any relevance on booking brides.

Scarlett clearly has no idea what “making money” actually means. Her dad bought her all of her gear, her home, her car, etc. How can you know how to be profitable when you have never had to really work a day in your life for anything? I would never want to take a real business class from someone who doesn’t run a real business….shooting weddings for friends so that you can have the money to buy lots of pink headbands from the toddler department of Kohls doesn’t a real business make.

If you REALLY want to learn to run a real business take the PPA SMS workshops. Go learn from Jeff and Julia Woods in their real studio that makes real money. Or at least put in real time to figure out if your “teacher” is a real businessperson or someone with no knowledge, clients, or actual photographic skill.

I have nothing substantial to contribute…I just want to put my name in the thread that all the cool people are in…

I don’t think she disclosed it. I discovered it by thinking who is this person with these terrible photos claiming to make lots of money and asking people to give her money for a seminar? I looked at her blog and counted the number of wedding posts instead of just posts about her and jesus and it does not compute. There’s no way to make a full time income for as little actual work as she appears to do. Then, an internet search for her name brings up her property records.

It’s pretty simple…she’s just a fraud. Pretends to be rich and successful when she ain’t. Like you said, ask for tax records.

Hmmm… Very interesting discussion… my opinion on what is happening: the introduction of digital photography, facebook, & twitter has made the “business” of photography specifically wedding photography easy & cheap.

Digital photography has cheapened the art of photography – PERIOD. How many photographers have shot film, developed film, and learned how to produce color and B&W prints by hand? To know film is to really know photography. How many photographers know what a printed picture should really look like without action upon action applied in post production? Can you actually get the shot without executing the hold the finger on the trigger technique rapid machine gun fire will definitely get something sooner or later push & pray? Do you actually think about your shot? My fav is the new guy on the block who steals your pricelist and makes it his without even changing anything…. LOVE IT!

Any yahoo can go out and purchase a expensive digital camera and all of a sudden become a photographer. Facebook & twitter are disgusting – it is now all about how cool you are and what a fab life you are living, what cool place you are traveling to shoot the kings wedding, blah blah blah look @ me I am so fabulous!

As far as the “rock stars” go – don’t believe the hype. I have looked at the websites and also heard a few speak and have walked away scratching my ass in confusion wondering how the heck they are an “industry leader” & really not all that impressed. So whatever. Stroke your egos make your $$$ and get on with it. DS is a joke.

There are a lot of amazing talented photographers out in the world and there are alot of people that are good at creating an image but not neccesarily captureing an image. Which one are you?

Great blog Carlos, you obviously came out of the gate hitting some people’s nerves. Well done!

I don’t consider myself a “grumpy” even though I’ve been a professional photographer longer it seems than most of my young “colleagues” have been sucking air. I came into this profession as a wide-eyed, not-knowing-a-dang-thing, full-of-spit-and-vinegar newbie some 35 years ago. Today my eyes aren’t quite as wide; I think I know a thing or two, maybe, some days; but I’m still as full of fire, spit and vinegar as the day I shot my first assignment.

Decades ago, thanks to an older photographer who took me under his wing, I learned a few simple rules to live and work by.
1) To be a better photographer shut up, put your head down and work hard.
2) Find a mentor who will take his/her time and help you grow.
3) Awards and honors are nice, but you’re only as good your last picture, so get back to work.
4) When you truly have learned your craft, pay back to your profession and become a mentor to others.
5) Be humble. Always.

Those were the rules back then, but today the book has changed. We’re now living in the Rock Star era where anyone with a year (or less) in business and five weddings under their belt can hold a seminar to teach from their “experience,” have a newsletter for “beginning” shooters and charge really newbie photographers for the honor of buying them a cup of coffee.

This all reminds me of a warning I learned long, long ago — “Beware of false Prophets.” Or if that isn’t to your liking, “Beware of the snake oil salesman.”

There is no fast track or easy road to a successful career. The path is long, winding, full of pot holes and detours.

In closing this meandering post, let me just pull a piece from history. In the fall of 1976 I sat in a meeting of professional portrait and wedding photographers in Michigan listening to the “old guys” proclaim the end of their profession was near! They were bemoaning all of the “young people” entering the wedding market with their new-fancy automatic Canon AE-1 cameras where all they had to do was show up, focus and take a picture. I vividly remember one particular very senior German fellow cry out “how dare they photograph a wedding without a Hassy!!”

Digital has been a game changer for our profession just like the acceptance of 35 mm film was a game changer at a time before us. Every advance of technology brings more people into the ranks. The easier it gets to take a picture the easier it looks to be a photographer. People will come and people will go. Some will forever be weekend warriors while others who are more brave (or foolish) will hang out a shingle and try to make a go of it full time. Wish them luck, or better still, become a mentor and coach them along.

Peace.

This thread just makes me realize more that for me it has to be about making my clients happy and being happy my self in the process.

I have definitely payed for workshops in the past where I have not learned what I expected to. If I think back though, there were nuggets of truth that I took from them and they have helped me become the photographer that I am today.

I think in this community destructive criticism is our catalyst. I think that everyone in this industry deserves to have creative and positive criticism from their peers, because it is our art. Everyone is not going to like my direction or my photos, but if they make my clients happy in the end that is what is important.

I have definitely had emails or comments in the past about my work on my website. That the eyes weren’t bright enough in a photo or the editing was not to their liking. Its an eye opener to me to just see that people take time out of their lives to criticize others.

I just have to continue to live my life and run my business in the way that I have been. I will most likely never be “cool” and I will most likely never be a top ten photographer, but I hope I am at least one of those things in my clients eyes!

Hi Kay,

I have read the book, and Dane has some good ideas about marketing and branding. However, it also has some very bad advice on the right way to start a business. It really does encourage people to pick up a camera and open a business, learning as they go. That’s what the “fast track” is. That’s not a path that leads to long-term success. New photographers would be much better served taking a year or two, reading, practicing, learning, apprenticing, going to a photography school or taking advanced education classes from qualified instructors. Paying their dues and putting their work in to really learn their craft, and then use the marketing and branding ideas from Dane’s book (along with the sound business practices taught at the PPA SMS seminars) to establish themselves as a viable business.

What’s happened instead is people started too soon and went nowhere (but they got there fast, I guess). That’s why OSP is all but dead. It was a thriving community about 2-3 years ago when the “fast track” ideas became popular. Everybody focused on their “brand” (although usually getting it wrong and thinking their “brand” is their name in a script font on a template website) and forgot the part where you need to learn how to take a picture. These businesses have largely failed now which is why if you log in to OSP today, you see a half-dozen posts a day instead of hundreds back when the fast trackers were starting off with their big dreams. It really is about the work, and these people didn’t have it.

This is another reason why I think this whole thing is much ado about nothing. The ideas don’t work, these new businesses fail and have no impact on established studios like mine, and the leaders of these movements will drift away, too. There will never be a Dane Sanders exhibit at the MOMA, and David Jay will never be an affiliate judge for the PPA, or…I don’t know, pick any other meaningful accomplishment in the photography world. No one needs to go tilting at windmills to “call out” people who don’t have the chops. Time and the marketplace of ideas will do that for us.

Jess said:

“What I want are clients like my June 5 bride who kenw she wanted me to be her photographer BEFORE she was even engaged. And then when she finally did get engaged, she called and said they would plan her wedding day around MY schedule because they wanted only ME as their photographer. Why can’t we have more clients like that?

It’s so frusterating to me in my city because there are so many new photographers who have come with a SLR and said, well I can be a photographer. Charge $700 for all day photography and the DVD and end up getting a crazy amount of bookings. I don’t really want a client like that, a client who is just happy with a mediocre photographer and a disk. I want the clients who HAVE TO HAVE the albums and the canvases etc etc.

In Fort Wayne though, the average photographer is around $2500 give or take. That’s just for a single photographer and maybe a second shooter. The husband/wife teams around here are about $5000 for a collection with an album or product credit.

I KNOW I have the capability to be an amazing photographer. I have a style that is so different from most in my area. I lean towards the sexy/vintage and most here are classical/romantic/pretty etc; etc;. I like images that are provactive. So I don’t know if it’s just my style is a little to abrasive for this area or what. But it drives me nuts that I lose a potential bride to photographers whose work is complete and utter garbage. Or, its only good because they are good with photoshop.

Like most new photographers, I relied heavily on photoshop for fixing lighting problems and color. But now, I am so happy with the images when they come straight off the camera. So I think that’s a good sign right?”

Jess, it may be time for a reality check on a number of points.

First, lets look at your market, which I presume is Fort Wayne, Indiana.

Here are the hard statistics:

Number of weddings projected for 2010:

Indiana: 35,377
Ft. Wayne: 3,340

Total wedding budget: $15,608 (2009) and $16,288 (2010)

Incidentally, the average wedding budget nationally has decreased by 1/3 from 2007 ($28,732) to 2010 ($20,088).

Average fee paid for photography services in Ft. Wayne in 2009 was $1,141.00 which was 7% of the total wedding budget. That number is for photography service only and does not include fees paid for products like albums, prints, etc. The number for 2010 is projected to be $1,166.

Note: The average fee paid for photography ANYWHERE in the country is in the range of 5-10% of the total wedding budget. Obviously there are exceptions, but that statistical average never changes.

How can you use those statistics to your advantage?

First, keep in mind that the higher your base fees are the fewer weddings you will book. That results in fewer weddings booked but at higher profit margins. Of course it can be said that the higher budget weddings with the resulting higher photography fees are what we all need to go after. The other side of that formula is that is you keep your base fee in the $1000 range you will find a much higher percentage of potential clients. Unfortunately you will also find many more photographers fighting for those clients. That mid range is where most photographers are battling it out.

So, how do you get to the point of being able to raise your fees and be successful in that rarefied market of “the high end bride”? Not by hopes and dreams or some bull crap cold to you at a high priced workshop. Like any business, to be successful you need to study the market and position yourself for success.

Points to consider (the facts may be a little different in Ft. Wayne, I don’t know):

1. The higher the wedding budget the fewer the available clients.

2. The higher the budget the more the bride relies on a wedding planner to help her.

3. The planner can be an independent business or an inside coordinator at a venue.

4. More affluent brides rarely go to bridal fairs.

5. More affluent brides rarely read wedding magazines.

6. Unfortunately, the other factors related to the proliferation of digital and the downturn in the economy also come into play. With the decrease by 30% of their budget the bride is going to look for places to cut corners. Unfortunately, photographers are an easy target. This is because they all feel we are over-priced to begin with (and they are usually correct in this instant rockstardom world) and they all know someone with a nice camera who is more than willing to shoot their wedding for free.

So, keep your base fee for services in the $1000-$1500 range and have other items as ala-carte. Then find ways to network with other wedding vendors with the ultimate goal of getting to know the wedding coordinators in your market. If most weddings in your market do not use coordinators then market to the other vendors like florists, DJs, caterers, etc.

I have built a strong 100% referral based wedding business over time but it takes time. Like any business, the first few years are going to be hard and not profitable (so watch your outlay of funds very carefully) but if you stay on a path that is based on factual research rather than some crap message from a workshop you will be able to build a good business.

Here’s the key to the kingdom: THINK LIKE THE COORDINATOR OR OTHER VENDOR and NOT LIKE A PHOTOGRAPHER. Understand what they need to build THEIR business (not your business) and fulfill that need for them. They need pictures! But not pictures of the couple kissing in front of the fountain or any other image that “sells” the photographer, they need pictures that sell THEIR services. The florist needs great pictures of the florals, the venue or coordinator needs great pictures of the room set up and the details. Make a point to shoot those and then make an appointment to visit the vendor or venue and deliver those to them for free and without your name and logo watermarked all over the images.

Now, go out and build your business!

@CAROLINE GHETES, you are correct, Hate is a bad word, I tell my kids that all the time, I wonder who they heard it from(hmmmmm). Should follow my own advice.
I’ve been shooting since ’91(guess that makes me a “grumpy”), and have seen this industry turn and turn and turn. When I started out, a career-minded photographer had to proceed along a path, pretty straight-forward, to become successful. Now the path is skewed in so many directions a lot of dont know what to make of what is right or wrong. So what if some 23yr old kid with no experience wants to have a workshop? I’m not going. And I shouldnt even have a comment about it. Not my business. do I care if they are in business in ten years, nope. Do I care if I lose a bride to them, nope. None of this matters because I am on my own path, and not someone elses.

I just did a little research on StephenKnuth.com Website. His site was created on June 8, 2009 and yet still managed to be “Showit’s Best Wedding photographer of the year” ???? hmmmm….

Unless he completely made a new domain name, his website has only been on for about 9 months.

All information found on whois.com

Domain Name: STEPHENKNUTH.COM
Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com

Updated Date: 08-jun-2009
Creation Date: 08-jun-2009
Expiration Date: 08-jun-2010

Im just sayin’, you had or have another website Stephen?

Show-it Photographer of the Year has nothing to do with Photography. It is a simple “Vote for Me” popularity pole. If you check on both Stephen and
Scarlett’s blogs they pushed hard to get the votes. Even using the promise of an engagement ring if he won.

OhhhhMyGosh. Really? Who cares? Apparently a lot of people do… Sadly. Is there a DEEPER issue? If we were being COMPLETELY honest with ourselves…we have all taken bad pictures and we’ve taken good pictures… we’ve all been dumb, we’ve all been smart… So all of this… who is good and who is bad…who is worth something and who is worthless… and who shouldn’t be teaching this, that, whatever… It doesn’t matter… It’s kind of subjective (No doubt, there are those who we might ALL agree are pretty terrible). I get it. But would it be fair to say this might be a SELF WORTH issue? Personally or professionally? We need accolades from people for what reason? Or… we need approval from people in this industry or popularity for what reason? Does it make us FEEL better?? Why is the focus on US and who WE are? When did it stop being about our clients? I guess I feel like a lot of people here feel sort of threatened… Are we forgetting that this is a gift… an art. You can’t LEARN it… you have *IT* or you don’t. You can learn lighting, you can learn composition… you can learn how to photoshop the mess out of something… but it takes a special “something” to be able to capture that undeniable breathtaking MOMENT…whatever it may be… blah blah… you get my point.
(Terry… really like your 5 steps up there… BRILLIANT. I might print those on a wall decal and plaster them all over my office as a reminder)

Thanks for starting this blog. The commentary on this post alone is a conversation that has needed to happen for a long time and one that goes far beyond the photography industry and applies to the larger wedding industry as a whole.

I forgot to add this as well…. a great tool.

http://nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/cdbcalc.cfm

So Carlos, where do we go from here?

@Julia Bailey- Do you have evidence of your accusations of me or is that just your thoughts at this moment?

To clear this up for you and those reading this now and in the future. Not once have I tried to be a salesperson. I don’t have any product to sell other than my art to my clients. There are a lot of other photographers who are really good at that & I’m not one of them. In 2008 I received a phone call from a recruiter from Brooks Institute of Photography. They had been following me and they offered me a spot in their future alumni. I was going to attend and I was humbled by their phone call. I knew I wasn’t the only photographer getting a call from them and I would have attended but I didn’t have the money to pay them for it.

Where I’m going with this is that I have wanted to be an artist from Day 1. The only reason you may think of me as a “salesperson” is my ties to showit & pictage. The only reason I promote them both heavily is because from the moment I started in this business I was with them and their services have worked great for me.

The brand of camera you shoot, it works great for you, Yes? Then don’t you talk great things about it to all your photog friends? It’s the same with Aperture vs. Lightroom, Pictage vs. Smug Mug, KISS Books vs. Leather Craftsmen. Well, thats the only thing that I have been doing for the products & services that have worked well for me in my drive to be an artist.

By the way, my work was on the walls of the Museum of Photographic Arts this past winter. Does that make me more of an artist to you or not?

If you disagree, well then Julia, maybe we just have different views on business & art.

One final thought… I forgive each and every one of you that has written bad things about my fiance & I. I have no bad feelings against any of you. Now, lets take our evil halloween masks off and go back to what your great at doing… Photography.

God Bless,

Stephen

Thank you Carlos for encouraging others to move on to the real reason you created this blog. As I told Carlos in a personal email today, I don’t know how a blog about he and David Jay got turned into a blog about me and Stephen.

Because this is a blog about truth, I thought I would take a break from editing to clarify the truth about some things.

I’m impressed you guys took the time out of your day to look up personal info about me. You are quite the detectives! I’m always an open book if you want to email me questions personally. I have nothing to hide.

But yep, you found it, my now dead father bought me my condo in 2005, a year before I even started a photography business. He also bought my car in 2001 as an early college graduation gift because he believed in rewarding kids for good grades and academic success. And yes, he even believed in me enough to invest in my first camera. If anything, because of his generous gifts, that motivated me to work harder to thank him and make him proud. An entrepreneur himself, he was my greatest business mentor. As he got sicker with cancer, he told me how proud he was of me and how much it comforted him to know he could leave this world knowing I could now stand on my own 2 feet financially. I wish everyone could be blessed to have parents in their corner believing in their dreams and helping to turn those dreams into a reality the way my parents did.

One of the first and best things I did starting out when I was researching how to run a photography business was buy Gary Fong’s DVD “Get Rich” which taught about how to make a greater profit on weddings through selling albums. I would like to say a huge public thanks to Gary for equipping me to now be able to make over $10,000 on a lot of my weddings (in a budget bride area) through the methods he taught in the DVD, something which I shared with the girls at my workshop. Gary, do you still sell that? I highly recommend it to everyone!

My personal goal from the beginning has been to free up my life to shoot less weddings per year, but make more money per wedding. My ideal for me and my lifestyle is 10 weddings per year, especially now with my own wedding to plan to my hot awesome fiance Stephen Knuth! I’ve never wanted to be the photographer who was booked every weekend, and that’s why I keep my price high for my market rather than lowering just to get a ton of bookings. But for those who didn’t dig deep enough and are claiming I’ve only shot 8 weddings total for friends, I thought I would make it easy for you to find most of my weddings on my blog, which I might add, only about 3 of the weddings I’ve shot in my whole career has been for friends or family, most of which paid me like a regular client. I do advise new photographers to shoot for free temporarily though, or for a tithe here and there, because my free work has always lead to referrals for paid jobs.

http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/12/teresa-nelson-are-married-casa-monica.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/12/lindsey-jonathan-are-married-palm.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/11/trisha-wedding.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/10/samantha-derek-are-married-salinas.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/06/rosanna-jared-are-married.html (This one was fun to tag along with my buddies Mike Colon and Luke Edmonson!)
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/09/rachel-mike-are-married-ponte-vedra.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/08/wendy-jamal-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/07/rachel-andrew-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/07/lori-jason-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/06/sarah-zac-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/06/sara-andrew-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/05/emily-ryan-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/04/danielle-jay-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2009/01/lynsi-jim-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/12/shayla-kyle-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/11/angelique-matt-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/11/amy-and-joe-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/10/rachel-ariel-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/09/caryn-jonathan-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/08/alexis-gerardo-are-married.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/07/congratulations-katie-garrett.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/07/congratulations-cara-drew.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/06/congratulations-tracy-chris.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/05/congratulations-sarah-brian.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/05/congratulations-stacey-ted.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/05/congratulations-jessica-ryan.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/04/congratulations-amy-howard.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/04/congratulations-michele-jeremy.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2008/02/congratulations-you-know-who-you-are.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2007/11/congratulations-julia-hugo.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2007/10/congratulations-claudette-rob.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2007/09/congratulations-tara-robbie.html
http://scarlettlillian.blogspot.com/2007/09/congratulations-debbine-mike.html
http://captivatingstudios.blogspot.com/2007/07/congratulations-jenny-jason.html
http://captivatingstudios.blogspot.com/2007/06/congratulations-susan-and-matt.html
http://captivatingstudios.blogspot.com/2007/06/cory-bobby-viva-las-vegas.html
http://captivatingstudios.blogspot.com/2007/04/jessi-and-daniel-trashy-beach-wedding_18.html
http://captivatingstudios.blogspot.com/2006/12/congratulations-jessica-jason.html (whew, how far I’ve come!)

In between all that, I fulfilled videos assignments, shot engagement sessions, portrait sessions, fashion sessions, second shot with friends and more. If you would like me to also take a picture of wall in my office that has collected Thank You notes from my clients who loved my work and were satisfied, I would be happy to come back and do that as well. In the meantime, thanks for checking out all my weddings on my blog! If my clients are happy with my work, that’s really the only opinion I’m concerned about.

Additionally, I don’t want a ton of weddings for the future because I’ve found out that I also love teaching and taking time to do that! It’s the most amazing feeling getting an email a year later from a photographer I taught who told me I helped her triple her bookings. The words she wrote are all there at http://workshops.scarlettlillian.com. I love taking what I know and helping to empower other photographers to follow their dreams and yes, like any industry, I charge for my consulting time. No, I’ve never claimed I’m the richest photographer or that I know it all or that I’m the best photographer, but as my friend Mike Colon told me, whatever level you are at, we all have something to share to help someone else. My inbox gets flooded with a ton of photographer’s questions daily, so I’ve opened up workshops to help answer how I do what I do. I’ve never claimed it to be the right way, simply my way. And naturally, no, not everyone will be happy in the end, but 95% of the results from my feedback survey after my workshop was full of great things about how much I helped them. And what Leeann forgot to mention in her review above is that she emailed me shortly after the workshop saying thanks to me for helping her book her top package! I was super excited for her, and as I pulled her aside and told her at the workshop, I see a great potential and saavy in her to really rock her photography business. Have you checked out the cool video blogs she does? And with Monica too, having recently lost her day job, I think she’s in a great position to really take off with her photography business now!

As far as the research you’ve done on Stephen, he’s been doing media for 8 years whether through photography or video. What he doesn’t put in his bio that I think is super cool is that he won a few awards in independent film festivals at like 16 years old. What an accomplishment! He turned down the opportunity to go to Brooks and study photography elsewhere to save money. He had previous websites for video and photo, but last year was when he got his ShowItSite that you found the registration for. He actually knows a lot more about film than I do, and has a lot of great artistic conceptual film photos around his house that he took back in the day before he ever got paid to be a photographer. He is a true artist first and foremost. And yes, now he’s been voted ShowIt’s Photog of the Year. Maybe it was because of a silly video we put on my blog, maybe not. We honestly did that just to be goofy for a big laugh, we didn’t actually think it would work. Regardless, people chose to vote for him. Love him or hate him. I choose to love him.

I know it’s a hard time right now in the industry, and the cat claws are coming out due to a lot of frustration in slow times and people defending the art. Instead of everyone tearing each other down, why can’t we all CELEBRATE the fact that we have the coolest job in the world as photographers? Whether you are shooting 1 wedding or 100 a year, have had 1 year experience or 25, how awesome that we all see the world a different way through our cameras and get paid to create art that our clients and future generations will cherish for years to come. I choose to believe the best in others and focus on the positive. I love my job!

Lastly, Carlos Baez was one of the very first people to see a potential in me and believe in me before I believed in myself. I love to tell everyone the story of how he pulled me aside at my first PartnerCon in 2007 and told me encouraging words about the great future he saw ahead for me. He has a kind heart and as an experienced pro, he wants to see great things for this industry. I love the concept of the truth movement, celebrating the ART of photography. God bless each of you! I sincerely wish each of you nothing but great success in your photography careers too!

“I pray that the God who gives hope will fill you w/ much joy & peace while you trust Him.” -Romans 15:13

Regarding the discussion of brands, I personally never talk about it unless someone specifically asks me. I think the brands are irrelevant to the work at hand.

I posted my evidence. waiting on the comment to be approved.

If wedding photography is not art, it is at least a product of craftsmanship. Some would be considered art. Some clients want what they consider art. I dont think it matters much if you are doing what you love and the clients are happy. There is a market for every style and flavor of photography with weddings. No reason to make it a pile of homogeneous same. Or worse, to make the concept of quickfix photography into some kind of standard. At least have pride in craftsmanship, the clients deserve it.

“I’m not sure wedding photography is ever art. And I’m not sure that is should be. Any thoughts?”

When I begin to see wedding photography exhibited in mainstream art galleries and museums then I will begin to believe that wedding photography is something more than pretty pictures of a pretty event.

Julia,

Without the emotional content these images have little appeal and the emotional content does not carry over to the community at large, it is only emotional to the families involved. While viewers that have no personal connections might like the images they are doing so only because they are pretty pictures. For a photograph to be elevated to the definition of art it must go far beyond that.

Rick, I do not know that I am creating art. I question this constantly. I do have people, random people, clients, etc. tell me that they can “feel” my wedding photos, regardless that they have no idea who the people are in the photos. From my personal perspective, I can not see it. I can only do what I do and if someone likes it, great. Let the clients be the judge and just do what you love is my point.

I hear what you are saying and I do think the industry at large has gotten a bit lost in the pretty. I liken it to a candy coated layer with no substance. I still think that in order to capture emotion in photography, the photographer needs to be in tune with his own emotions as well as have a keen sense of emotional IQ regarding other people. Know thyself would be a terrific start at improving ones photography. You ARE your photography.

From where we all sit right now, the industry can either spiral down a path of quickfix products and concepts, leaving me with a greater number of clients or people can consider the impact that photography plays in everyone’s lives from this moment and on into future generations. Truly, it is a state of mind. Do you want to evolve your work or do you just want to pay the bills with minimal effort? Maybe if you are 20 weddings seem like minimal effort. To me, they are incredibly hard work!

On the other hand, I think there is a market for emotionless pretty. There is a market for every style and flavor of photography so it doesn’t really matter what your style is or what someone else’s style is. It isn’t even worth arguing over whether or not wedding photography is art. It is art to some and not art to others. It is what you make it and how others judge it.

Oh, and by the way Jenn, I have not sold out and I run a successful business.

I stopped blogging. I stopped all marketing. I take forever to edit the images. I am bad at answering emails right away. I have no brand. People are lucky if I answer the phone without making them first leave a message. With all of that, I have as much work as I could want.

The industry profits off of the photographers. The photographers don’t really need the industry. That’s the funny bit that everyone fails to realize.

This is definitely an interesting discussion, albeit an entirely pointless one.

There are so many subjective statements, wild inaccuracies and pointed barbs in the comments it’s ridiculous.

Who is anyone to lay claim to the ultimate authority on what another photographer can or cannot do? Or decree how experienced one must be before they can on cannot teach others or hold a workshop?

What simple-minded nonsense.

I’m not sure much of note has been accomplished throughout history by sitting back and saying, “Oh, you can’t do things that way!”

“Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square hole. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can’t do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.”
– Apple Computer Inc

Julia,
My husband and I are planning to renew our vows and I get to have the pictures and the day I never got. (Typical Military Wife here. Haha, got married at the courthouse.) When I ask myself, “WHO DO I WANT TO SHOOT IT?” A list comes to mind & I start looking at websites.

I am a visual person, well I would venture to say anyone who is shopping for a photographer is visual, when I go to a website, I get a feel for a photog. I judge the images, yes, but I also take into consideration the design of the website and the branding. In all honesty, I would never hire a photog that uses Papyrus as the font in their logo, well I wouldn’t really rush to the phone to call them. I would rather hire a photographer with a blog than one without one. To me personality means a lot.

Why? Because they are all elements of YOU. No offense, but I wouldn’t want to spend the entire day with someone who is too busy to answer my emails. Do I have any proof, studies, statistics about personality drawing in clients? No, but I am a consumer. I know what I like, I know what I want.

Maybe I gravitate to the “rockstar” photographers because they have made themselves more approachable. (They answer my emails.)

Julia I love your site. For those of you who asked if weddings can be art. Go to Julia’s homepage slideshow and see the image of the bride underwater. I personally see that as art. Nice work!

‘Julia I love your site. For those of you who asked if weddings can be art. Go to Julia’s homepage slideshow and see the image of the bride underwater. I personally see that as art. Nice work!’

Yeah, took a look; wow, if wedding photography can be art Julia’s certainly comes damn close. That shot certainly seems to qualify.

I don’t know, I didn’t go to art school so I don’t know if I have the right language but maybe it is the presence of the wedding dress that presents a problem. It adds so much context. Certainly on a regular wedding day of mine I don’t end up with art. Beautiful moments and shots? I hope so. Artistic shots? Hopefully. But never something to make it in a gallery. I had a random shot from the getting ready photos once that picked up a real Cindy Sherman vibe. I hung on to it for awhile thinking it might be art but it was it’s lack of context to the event that made it seem like possible art to me.

Fun talk!!

John

In the past 12 hours I’ve taken more time than I should have to read through all these comments. Somewhat intrigued by the conversation, but not sure how I feel about it.

I think one thing that the “Rockstar” photographers movement has created is quite frankly a lot of jealousy. Those of us without celebrity status can easily fall into being jealous of those who have it or those who choose to allot some of their business reinvestment income into the myriad of expensive workshops available. If we put aside the resentment and jealousy, is there still something to be so passionately bitter about?

Let’s compare workshop pricing to our own pricing… Our prices are partly determined by what our market is willing to pay. It’s important to know if photographers in your area (regardless of their images) are actually collecting the price you’re looking to charge from your actual market. If you decide to offer a workshop, and another photographer offering similar workshop topics can charge $700 for that workshop, then clearly people are willing to pay that for some education. On one hand, of course we want to be sure that the content will justify the investment. On the other hand, if people are paying to fill the seats, why shouldn’t a photographer charge a fee to share their hard-earned knowledge? If I had been paid for a workshop and received negative feedback, I’d make it right and do better next time. Perhaps some one-on-one with the disappointed attendee or a seat at another workshop for free or a refund; either way I’d address it.

I do not believe you need to be in business for 20+ years to offer up your knowledge at a price. I do believe you need to evaluate what you can teach as well as be incredibly clear about the content of the workshop and your ideal audience. I don’t think it’s reasonable to ask people to share limitlessly for free, but I do agree that it’s kind of insane to ask for $150 for a lunch meeting. There’s a happy medium in there somewhere.

Perhaps our industry is growing a little less star-struck and perhaps change is coming. I look forward to watching this blog to see how we can be inspired in a new way, because I’ve personally found plenty of inspiration on the blogs and Facebook fan pages and resource websites of many of the “Rockstars.” I began as a black-and-white film photographer and stayed that way all through four years of high school and five years of college, and I’ve missed studying the great photographers I loved through museum exhibitions and textbooks…I am happy to add this blog to my list of weekly reads in hopes of getting some old-school inspiration back into my routine.

And with that, thanks for reading my random thoughts and I am off to actually get some work done today.

Mr Gary Phong sir, Steven has had one client that was a relative, and he has all of one client currently on his website. He has never shot a paid wedding so I don’t think your workshop on “rave” clients will help him. He has no clients to rave about him yet.

Jenn, The rock stars answer your emails? Can you prove this to me?

I do things my way because it works for me at this time in my life. I have had to learn to not overbook myself. Call it the anti-marketing campaign.

People tend to hire a photographer who cares as much about photography as they do. You may hire a photographer who cares more about the font on their business card than the images you end up with. That is your choice. There is a market for every style and flavor of photography, every approach to marketing. I have proven it the extreme. If you follow the formula being sold too closely, you will attract clients who care less about the photography and more about the watch you wear.

I think it is sad that photography is becoming more about website, clothes you wear, favorite flavor of ice cream, etc. than the lasting images. Then again, was it ever any different? No wonder wedding photography has always been considered the lowest rung of photography.

I chose to link to @Fauxtographers. This is not an attempt to be anonymous and bash others. We are here to help photographers along their journey AND give the ‘Rockstars’ honest feedback.

To ALL photographers:

* We won’t make the industry better if we replace the “fake” with “hate.”
* Can you really fight “mockery” with “mockery?”
* What qualifies someone to teach a workshop? Time as photog, talent, content, awards, successes, name, Rockstar Status, friends and/or good looks?
* What do you want out of a photography workshop? Inspiration, networking, technical skills, business methods, marketing or creative concepts?
* Just because the “Cool kids” are teaching workshops does not mean it can help YOUR photography and/or business.

To the “Rockstar” photographers:

* If you have not ran a PHOTOGRAPHY business for at least 3 years…you should not be teaching about the business of photography. Period!
* Photographers are upset because our current “Leaders” are amazing at marketing…then photography seems to be an after thought.
* Get your head out of your ass and listen! If indeed photographers are your target market…you might want to pay attention to what they are saying.
* Just because you are successful DOES NOT mean you are right qualified to teach.
* Are you creating community to help other photographers? OR Are you creating community to help YOU market your product & services to other photographers?
* “Sharing” and “giving back” is not the same as charging for a workshop/product/service.
* I’m curious about the origin of the term “Grumpies.” I mean if some of these “Rockstars” were as arrogant back in the day as they are now…I’m sure many photogs would snubbed them! Think about it. Maybe your are the problem.
* If you act like your $hit don’t stink…people will sniff harder.
* If you create a photog resource around you…you will be self-promoting all the time. If people don’t like you…they wont like your resource.
* You are being “Flashy” when you RT every compliment/thanks/nice thing… that someone else says about you!
* Please don’t ask to RT everything and/or say “make sure you follow me on Twitter.” It sounds desperate. If someone likes the Tweet or are generally interested..they should RT or follow you themselves with out you asking.
* Are you creating “value” at your workshops with tangible, applicable and unique info/skills? Or a bunch of sponsor discount codes, promos and shwag?
* You chose to use your “fame” and industry visibility to push your photographer resources. So be prepare to get ALL forms of attention…good and bad.
* When you have banners and ads on your photography blog to make money…you look like a sell out.
* To classified yourself as a “photographer” don’t you have to actually shoot? Don’t hold the title just for marketing.
* If you are still using your first ever DSLR…you should NOT teach your own workshops.
* Are you pushing photographer to fame so they can push your products and services?
* Are you in it for the money? That is fine…just don’t bullshit people!

Cheerio,
~ @Fauxtographers

Julia I love your work!!!! I want to see more good photos. The “rockstar” photographers should be the ones that “rock it” with the camera not their mouth

Photography is my passion I love it, its always been a part of my life and I don’t like seeing these hacks making a mockery of it.

The saddest part is their confession of faith. I don’t doubt you are christians; but please think about what christ would have you do. Would he condone exaggerating your income and experience to gain followers? Would he call himself something he was not?

Please be honest with yourself, even if you can’t be honest with us. Admit what you really desire. Is it to BE a great photographer? Or is it really to be THOUGHT of as a great photographer? Or perhaps, like Scarlett admitted, you want to be a teacher. There is nothing wrong with wanting to teach others, but please be honest with your students about your experience and successes or lack of. If you just want the attention of a Rock Star then shame on you; but congratulations, we all know who you are.

No matter how honest you are, we the “grumpys” cant stand by and allow you to undermine the industry. And if calling you out is what it takes, i hope more “grumpys” speak up.

OK so that was a lot to read… and I will admit I skipped a few words. But all of that being said about rockstars etc. I still think the big problem is the new photographer in town who follows one of these rockstars opens up shop and claims to be an professional because they charge $5000 and only do 10 weddings a year.

Then they shoot a bunch of photos on PROGRAM and spend 3 weeks in photoshop applying actions and filters. Oh and by the way, why are you shooting peoples feet it’s their wedding day for god sake.

I’m sorry but all of this stuff looks the same PLEASE come up with your own style and then maybe I’ll have a little respect for you. I kinda like being called a grumpy, after I’ll I was souping TX in Acufine when these guys were still in nappies.

“Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen.” – Winston Churchill

If anyone is still reading….

I’d like to propose a new direction some of us can follow. It will be called,…”Save the Newbies!”

Let US, WITH experience, WITH the passion to live photography as our path in life, WITH the trials and errors of living this dream, WITH having seen the rise and fall of the rockstar wedding photog trend end, give our time to help the new blood of this industry.

I’ve never charged for information that I happily “teach” new photographers. We should all find time to mentor or provide a resource that helps new photographers get the information they need, rather than prey on all their insecurities and charge for it. I’m all about capitalism, but there is a certain amount of basics that we should pass on to ensure our industry prospers, and people abide by these basic principles. We need to create an industry of true “pros” and peers, just like commercial photography has.

Its time wedding photography grew up.

Wow…I am a newbie (sorta) and I caught on to this style early on and I will say I am glad that I am not the “groupie type” so the “Rock Stars” either selfmade or made by newbies like me…really don’t mean that much to me I don’t swoon over any of them they are people just like me….But, what DOES matter and makes someone a real Rock Star to ME is when someone (Rock Star or NOT) gives freely of themselves in a genuine manner and belive me most people can see when its not genuine…pretty quickly.

I don’t buy anything or into anything that will not benefit me or the people I want to serve by making what I have to offer them (which should be great photos of their moments) better and better…anything else is a waste of time and money.

WOW!

I’m a newbie…I’ve been shooting for 13 plus years but I’m a newbie to this industry. I got a text from a friend mentioned several times in this to take a look at what was being said. WOW!

I think there are some amazing things being positioned and some mud slinging. I’m not a fan of mud slinging…it’s easy to target someone and go to town on all that you see wrong with them. I hope I’m NEVER a rockstar in this industry! WHY? Because I love photography! I believe I was put on this earth to be a photographer. I mean I really love it . I don’t want all this hype and crap because I feel like it would rob me of that love. I shoot because it’s my passion. I shoot weddings because I adore documenting the most special day of this couples life. I love people and I love giving people images…art if you will, that they can cherish. I’m fine just being known to my clients in my “neck of the woods…Mississippi”. I don’t want anything to rob me of my passion and joy for shooting.

That being said…I have a love/hate relationship with this industry. I hate the haters hating on my friends…taking their heads off and posting them on nude bodies…really…is that necessary? I’ve taken workshops and learned a ton…I also worked for Stephen Karlisch for a summer (HI STEPHEN) and he was so gracious to me and took me under his wing and taught me a ton! I already have people asking me to host a workshop and I’m like…no thank you! I don’t know enough. But I love sharing my heart and empowering others to achieve their greatness! I just wish that we could encourage each other to greatness and not hate.

Scarlett is an amazing person and friend…not perfect but no mistake is worth this type of hysteria!

I am glad that this type of forum exists to express ourselves and question the point of what we are doing? We are artists… I’m just thankful that I get to do the thing I love…that’s all…

@STEPHEN KARLISCH

So, when can we get started???

I’ve been following this since the inception and have found it really interesting that the gloves have come off.

I agree with a lot of what is being said and I think people that have been deemed the “rockstars” and are under criticism need to step back and take a GOOD look at themselves and what they are doing to see if there is any validity to the claims. Some “rockstars” are way too arrogant to even question if what they are doing goes against everything they are saying.

I also believe that everyone has something to offer. Whether it’s their first year in the business or their 90th, everyone has something to give to someone who needs it. Do I think that those in their first or second years should be teaching and charging for a workshop–NO! Do I think someone in their first couple of months has something valuable to share with someone else –ABSOLUTELY.

Just my two cents.

I just keep reading these and while there are some very good points made all around, like I said in my earlier comment I was so caught up in trying to impress other photographers that I lost myself, I was too busy trying to be like everyone else. I even stopped following blogs so that I could find myself, my my own style and impress my clients not photographers.

But I have to say just WOW to some of these comments on here. You want to talk True Photo Talk then talk it, but going as far are calling people by their names is crazy!!! I mean this is all out in the public!! I don’t know this Stephen guy, I have never met Scarlett but I do know who she is. No matter what or how you feel about them to go as far as doing research on where they went to school, getting tax info or talking about how or who is paying someones house off and car ect ect that is just shameful.

Again even after 5 years I still consider myself a new photographer, I still feel I have TONS left to learn. But I do or did respect quite a few people that have made comments on here but WOW really it’s just SAD that some of you guys are seriously taking personal attacts on people.

Am I going to go spend money on a spend the day with such and such…….. No!!! Although there was a time I would have and then I realized it was only so I could say I met such and such well heck thats just stupid so I realized that unless it’s a workshop for something I can use to grow MY business and not my social staus, have researched it then heck yea!! if there is someone out there that wants to teach me off camera flash and you offer workshops or what ever let me know I am so there.

But really I can not beleive some of the things I am reading here from grown, well established photographers. Newbie, Rockstar, Grumpy fact is we all gotta be somebody and not everyone is going to like you or agree with you.

Kristin – “Don’t blame the photographer because you have buyer’s remorse.”

But it’s more than that…this is an organized con job. it isn’t just that scarlet, or david jay or dane are bad teachers…they’re people who don’t really know anything about photography or the biz and just saw a bunch of marks they could peddle feel-good (but worthless and false) information to to fuel their egos and get rich quick. None of these people have ever run successful photography business, never been to art school, never won an award for photography…nothing. But then they lied to poor innocent people exploiting them with every trick in the book, from greed to the desire for fame and to “fit in,” to even religion to get money from them! And in return, they got nothing. worse than nothing, they got bad advice that they could waste more time and money on, maybe ruining their chances of living their dreams as a photographer. they’ve hurt so many people!

We gotta protect our industry..this is no different than if somebody came into your town pretending to be a photographer, took people’s deposits and ran off with it…that stuff winds up in the papers and gives everybody a bad name. no different…these con men give us all a bad name, and we’d all be better off if dj, dane, scarlet and the rest of them found different jobs. it’s too bad they can’t go to prison for this, but oh well…

Here is a thought…

When you enter a photo competition, you are placing your work before an audience for critique. Everyone would love to have their image adored and appreciated, the fact is, you will be critiqued. Critiques can be a matter of the viewers personal taste or it can offer a true technical perspective that can help you improve if you learn to listen to other opinions.

The beautiful thing about putting your work in the arena of competition is that you can grow from it. You either decide that the image was the way you wanted it and f@ck what anyone else thinks, or you can learn something from it.

Since the philosophy behind the current rock star trend is that “you are not your photography” and people are being told to market their personalities, because it is the personality that sets you apart and makes you different (not the photography)… Well, you have essentially placed your personality and life in the realm of competition and opened “yourself” to critique rather than placing your images in the competition.

The thing is, if you ARE your photography, the critique of your photographic work is just as hard to hear. But, its important to learn how to be critiqued. Really, everyone should open themselves to this experience.

I know there is some kind of wedding photo competition site coming on the scene and i have no idea how it works. What they need to do is make the entries anonymous and give all of the entrants an ability to vote and critique the images…anonymously. This would be great way for the new photographers to learn and grow technically as well as learn to take critique without falling apart or coming unglued when they see honest critique happening to themselves or their friends.

The fact is, the people in question in this industry have been selling their personalities. It is not our job as consumers to be in love with them, it is our job to research and critique what we are buying before we buy it. If they were trying to sell me their wedding photography, I would certainly critique their photos before buying! There is no difference. They have made their personalities and their knowledge the product.

It is completely naive to suggest we not critique the product. And this of course goes along with the current trend of marketing to emotions rather than intellect, which is happening on a national level from product advertisement to politics.

Which brings me back to being aware of marketing strategies. Until we understand the kinds of marketing strategies being thrown at us at every moment of our existence by every facet of our corporate world, we will not have control of our own lives.

Believe it or not, I am trying to help, not hurt. Eventually, that might become clear.

(Its 4:00 am and I am pretty sure I did not make sense, hitting submit anyway. Deal with my babble)

Another thought…

When a person is selling their personality and knowledge as the product, then they can no longer be a person. They are a product, a commodity. This is tricky. The original intent was “brand personality” marketing. This is marketing targeted to the photographers emotions. But, the product in questions IS a personality. Any sane person would not want to hurt another person. BUT, the personality can are no longer a person, they are a product. You can not let your emotions and empathy for another living person control your judgment/critique of the product. Wow, what a fascinating dilemma!

What were they thinking? Maybe, the showits, pictages, kiss albums and every other product pushed by (said rock star personalities) are the real product. The rock stars are the brand personalities connected to the real products.

(this is the reader gets an idea to research “brand personality marketing” for better understanding)

So, hmmm… The problem is that the rock stars never admitted to being the brand personalities. They even DENY that they have been placed by the product companies to sell said products. They claim to be ARTISTS/photographers, not salesmen.

Holy crap, what a freaking marketing disaster! Who’s lame idea was this? Did Dane Sanders get the idea from Seth Godin? Honestly, this really just blew up in your faces.

Ok, Scarlett and Stephen (because you were the ones mentioned in the thread, but this goes out to everyone shilling products), FESS UP! If you want to save yourself in the light of the photographers, you are going to have to be honest. If you want to be a wedding photographer, then shoot weddings and detach yourself from the products. If you want to sell us products, GOOD LUCK! You have really gotten yourselves in a giant mess and its not ALL your fault. It is bigger than just the rock stars, it is the industry, it is the products, it is the leader behind the marketing of the products. It is either Dane Sanders or the people who invested in the creation of the Showits, the pictages, the kiss albums, the shootq’s etc. It is everyone behind the products that the rock stars are pushing. It is all of you as a whole trying to deceive us! THAT is repulsive.

To Stephen and Scarlett, I hope you are not taking this mess too personally. Honestly, I am sure you are both good people with real heart and soul. For that, I apologize for any hurt you have to suffer through all of this. The problem is, you did not define the difference between the product and the personality and what you were really selling. In other words, you lied.

To the industry behind this disaster,

did you really think we were all that stupid? Remember that term..what was it? Oh I remember… ACCOUNTABILITY.

To the photographers,

Stop arguing about art, lenses or whatever and start looking at the real problem. This is bigger than just the individual photographers. This is the industry vs. the photographers. Dont let their divide and conquer marketing techniques confuse you. Please. What we need to do now is figure out how to make the industry accountable, not just the workshop speakers (as Gary Fong has so willingly begun with his workshop website. Which kind of makes me wonder, why is he so eagerly jumping in?)

this has been a very enlightening discussion and i applaud everyone who has taken the time to read and comment.

what bothers me the most about Stephen Knuth and his ‘photographer of the year’ award and its blatant plastering all over his website when he has 1 wedding on there, and that in itself looks like he was a second shooter.

when awards/titles like this are thrown out to anyone just because they agree to be a spokesperson for yet another photographic product that is being shoved down our throats and is not earned from the hard work and years of experience normally associated with an award/title like this, it cheapens it for the others who do put in the time.

does the consumer out there understand this? do they see Photographer of the Year and expect exceptional work? should we blame them for being mislead and then disappointed?

i entered into this business a bit naive i guess, i just hope that when and if i ever receive this accolade, it is truly earned and respected by my peers.

that’s all!

Sorry, forgot something:

For everyone bashing Stephen for his award – why not try bringing it up with ShowIt instead of Stephen? Stephen was part of a contest that allows voting – he did nothing wrong by promoting himself to win (political races – same thing!)

If you have an issue with how the contest is run – contact ShowIt. If enough people ask for a change, I’m sure they’ll change it.

Which is interesting, because it’s run like a democracy (most votes win) – and you would think this would be a good thing. It’s always been fine in the past.

Maybe it should only be judged by master photographers – but my point being – don’t blame Stephen. He didn’t RUN the contest, he did what everyone else did. He won because more people voted for him.

Stephen did what he was told to do.

Take it up with SHOWIT and the people who support and sponsor show it. I agree.

At the same time, satire is an essential part of democracy. This is why the First Amendment protects satire and parody as a form of free speech and expression. As long as people continue to play the puppet, I can assure you that places like studio ugly will continue to parody them. If you sell yourself to deceive everyone else for the sake of profit, accept that the joke will be relentlessly on you.

All I can say is WOW!
I think everyone should worry more about their own photography and business and focus on becoming a better photographer all aroun. Stop worrying about everyone else and what they are doing.
I have never seen an industry that is more caddy and full of opinions! Photography is art and art is subjective!
Get off the forums and blogs and shoot some images and become a better photographer. Shooting it your way, with your style, with your personality and eye.
On that note I am talking my own advise and signing off!

Kristen & Melissa, I agree in most ways. I’m not sure if it’s such a bad thing as to leave a review for a workshop people have taken from so and so, however I too cannot believe the detective work being done and the personal attacks. I think that stuff should either be moderated by Carlos, and should be taken up with the person who is being personally attacked privately. I don’t need to hear about someone else’s tax returns and who bought who’s condo. Seriously people. This needs to be kept civil, and saying that someone’s father bought their condo and photography equipment = doesn’t deserve to be a photographer is just plain wrong.

Kristen – so you don’t have a problem with con artists? Like when little old ladies get ripped off by phony contractors who say they’ll put a new roof on their house for $12,000, take the money and run off? Was that a case of “buyer beware?” Stupid old ladies. Got what they deserve and they’ll learn from that mistake, eh Kristen?

there are a billion workshops out there…some way better than others. but people are only here ragging on the ones that are fake. it’s because these people lied to newbie photographers, pretended to be rich and successful so they could rip them off…that’s why people are angry. IT’S NOT THE PERSONALITIES IT’S NOT JEALOUSY IT’S THE FRAUD!

and i’m sure they’re wonderfully nice people. of course they are…they’re conmen! conmen are supposed to be nice to you…that’s how they gain your trust (confidence in them) and then get your cash. buyer beware is fine, but it ends at fraud, and definitely when that fraud effects my business.

I’ve posted my review for Scarlett’s workshop on my blog, and anyone is free to read my personal thoughts.

Additionally, it fed into my Facebook today and I’ve received feedback on there as well. So far myself + 5 other photographers have voiced an opinion in agreement with my workshop thoughts (although not all publicly, but to me via emails and Gchat. And no I’m not just making that up, because that’d be stupid.)

6/20 = 30%, not 5%. I’m not sure you got the most honest feedback in your survey, but it is what it is.

Oh, sorry.

Here is the link:
http://www.leeannmariephotography.com/for-photographers/scarlett-lillian-workshop/

Wonderful discussion. Very entertaining and enriching.

I’m wondering, Mr. Gary Fong, if you would be willing to indulge us with your tax reports from the years when you were “getting rich” as a photographer. I’d love to see Kevin Swan’s as well, since he’s selling $20,000 albums regularly – yet has weddings posted on his blog that look… well, not of that caliber. Swan, could you share your tax report (minus the KISS revenue of course). Though, I suppose that would be easy for an InDesign expert to falsify. But it would be interesting nonetheless! (Also, will you be selling that puke/piss green filter that you seem to be using on your out-of-focus photos? I’ll be the first in line! I need something for my Halloween photos!)

Julia, your indignation would be much easier to swallow if you didn’t use Showit shows on your site. And Carlos, weren’t you involved in that hack job “Engage”… you know, the rip-off of Vincent Laforet’s “Reverie”? And dearest Matt Radlinski, please don’t mention your PPA training. I know it’s right on the t-t-tip of your tongue. I would wipe my arse with your PPA certificate if it weren’t one-ply.

And how is it that one of the biggest offenders hasn’t been called out? Where’s the mention of Mr. (camera) Tosser himself, Mike Larson? And no Corey Mcnabb(ed your money) either? What gives. If you all are going to tear each other apart, let’s go hog wild!

Blimey!

Wow! I have just spent a lot of my time reading through most of these posts. I must say it is refreshing to see some of these comments on here. I was starting to feel a bit alone on this & confused. I have no bashing to contribute to this as I think every step in life & my photography business has been a learning curve. I started out at 19 years old (Ahhh, 11 yrs ago) & learned from a wonderful family friend of mine in California. I moved back to my hometown of NE, started a business w/ my film camera, a bunch of b/w film & a darkroom. And, yes I’m so thankful for my parents helping me out with this. At that point that was my “college fund”. They believed in me & my work.

After about 5 years, I was pretty successful & was booking about 4 families/babies/kids, etc/per week. It was amazing. Like Christmas morning every time my film came back from the lab. I only started shooting weddings about 3 or 4 years ago…besides a few times I was at a friends wedding shooting for fun. I will admit, I hit major road bumps throughout. Spending a lot of time with friends on $1 beers for example…LOL!

After I met my now husband, I knew that my life would change. He is in the Army. This meant moving…a LOT! I decided that I would join him in Colorado (2005) & get my associates degree in Photography from AIC. Not only to meet new people in my field, but learn more about digital photography. Anyways…I did that, we are now married (got married in October) & living in upstate NY. The market is nothing like it is back home. Pretty small town, but some great harbor towns that sit on Lake Ontario. But, I’m finding it very hard to market myself here.

On another note..we actually hired becker to shoot our wedding. He was awesome! Had a great time w/ my family & friends & we loved our photos!!! However…nothing against him at all I have learned a lot over the past year & wish I would have hired one of the many talented photographers from my hometown. If only bc Lincoln, Ne is a huge “small business” oreinted area & I completely support that.

On that note–I do think the hype is there for the “rock star” photographers that I’m reading about above. But, most of them are living in highly populated areas…ie: California, Florida. Even the amount of sunlight is completely different for one. (I say as I look out the window on day 5 of clouds.) However, I feel as though I followed “the crowd” a little too much. Reading this has brought me back to what I love in the first place…making photographs. I will honestly say that I love being able to photograph a couple’s relationship. And, have fallen in love all over again w/ photographing babies & children.

I think all of this is interesting (some people on here tho need to back off a bit). However, a lot of this is pretty true. Paying for workshops? Do it if you want. I will say that I have. Doesn’t help me much in my military towns I’ll be living in until my husband retires. And, it doesn’t help MY business by knowing “so and so miss or mr fabulous photographer” in California. Not at all. They aren’t booking clients for me.

IMO–A quote that I love that was mentioned above by Richard is…”Great photos are made, not taken”. Although there has been a lot of negativity in these comments, overall I feel refreshed. For a long time I was feeling very “confused” and irritated by all the hype of the “rock star” photographers. Don’t get me wrong, there are some that I have met, enjoyed and still follow.

But, I am definitely going to look at things in a new light. Number 1–I am going to stop focusing so much on what people think of my “brand”, etc. and focus on my passion. My Christmas morning.
Number 2–start looking for other photographers in my area, to meet for coffee & talk about the market…hope they don’t charge me though. (maybe I’ll charge them…LOL!!!)

After all, we’ll be moving in less than 2 years again! Ha!

Oh & any military photogs out there? Shoot me an email so we can chat about the ups & downs of the different areas.

Scarlett,

Yes, art is subjective. You don’t have to tell me that. Success, however, is not. Either you’re working or you’re not. If you are happy with (how many weddings per year did you say? 12??) 12 weddings then that’s great! People aren’t criticizing you for your art. There are plenty of photographers out there who have work that people in the industry don’t care for but you don’t see them being slammed on the blogs, forums and fake twitter accounts.

I’m just telling you WHY you are being criticized and that you may want to read some of the comments coming your way and take them to heart. Yes, you may get flooded with emails but you’ve set up a lemonade stand right inside the opening gates of the photography industry. New photographers are thirsty. They will drink the lemonade. I did when I first started out. I didn’t know where to go so I followed who OSP told me to follow. Shortly after I attended a photography meeting and someone said “oh! you’re moving to tallahassee?? You should look up Susan Stripling!” I had no idea who she was, she didn’t have a lemonade stand. When I saw her work I was blown away and quit following those people who OSP told me to follow. That lead me to following other amazing and very successful photographers in the industry. You have to admit you put yourself out there for the new people in the industry so they are going to follow you.

But you know what? It’s clear you don’t care what we’re saying so I think this is all a waste of time. I liked you. I really did. It’s not even the fact that you’re teaching that gets to me. It’s the parade. It’s unbearable to watch. I was sent your videos by so many photographers the day they were released. Everyone was appalled by them. I couldn’t make it through them. But clearly it doesn’t matter what we think.

Please take this from someone who is in your area and knows the heartbeat of the industry in our area. Yes, art is subjective, but it’s not that. It’s the parade.

I just don’t get it. First off, I don’t have the time to read every comment in here but I’ve read a few and man am I ever saddened by this entire conversation.

What satisfaction do ANY OF YOU get by bashing others in an open forum? If you don’t like someone work or lifestyle then don’t follow them, don’t pay money for their workshops and don’t concern yourself with them. PERIOD. Why do you care? Just go on living your life and enjoy every moment of it without giving another thought to them.

I think all of this bickering is tearing the industry apart… it is NOT making it stronger.

The BIGGEST drawback to the photography industry as a whole is the whole ROCKSTAR mentality. There is a big difference between self promotion and bragging and a fine line to cross it. Watch out! At the end of the day no matter how much you charge for weddings, how many you do, or how much you make,WE ARE ALL JUST WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS, NOT CELEBRITIES! We take pictures for a living… we don’t save the world.

Don’t get me wrong, I love what I do and I am all about helping others out. I just can’t stand to see people making such big deals about other’s decisions when it does not concern them. You are tearing other’s apart and you are not in a position to call them out on things. Let their friends and family do that.

Watch yourself, life isn’t about photography. It’s about relationships. Quit tearing others apart. You are not responsible for their ridiculous behavior and you don’t have to support it but don’t bash them. There is NO good reason.

Take a step back and look at how ridiculous all of this really is and then go out and plant a garden or do something that makes you feel good and live your life!

Millie Holloman

“and on the contest for showit, Stephen was going to win no matter what. Check David Jay’s facebook history. He was telling people to vote for Stephen from the get go. The whole thing was planned. Open your eyes.”

Well said.

I know nothing about this silly contest but I do know a thing or two about David Jay.

David is a very talented and charming promoter. I am sure that he would be successful in anything he tried to pitch. His main emphasis has always been to create “evangelists” who will praise his name and his products all over the web. He is a master at that. You won’t read anything from Stephen that doesn’t include his huge admiration for David Jay and Showit. That is how DJ has become the industry icon that he is.

Jen – SO TRUE. A lot of great points have been made here, and I agree with most, but really, I do what I do for myself and my clients. In the end, that’s who really matters (and that’s who foots the bill).

I’m sure we could get into a huge debate on whether wedding photography is art, and again, it’s up to your clients. If they are looking for art, and they “know art” they will choose the photographer that is going to best express their day in an artistic way. But many clients are just looking for documentation of a wedding day, or a time in their child’s life, that they feel they can’t capture in a pleasing way…so they hire a photographer whose pictures make them feel good. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t all continue to be students of photography, but I think the market for people looking for art is smaller than the market of people looking for personal moments printed out on a piece of paper.

Right on Millie! Took the words right out of my brain!

Nuttiness!

This is going to be long!
I have read most of these posts on this topic but then ran out of free time and need to get back to my clients. I agree and disagree with what I have read. When a topic like this comes to light or someone is personally called out, there are always those who agree and those who don’t (obviously). However, what most people seem to miss is that there is a REASON this is a topic.

I am a “newer” photographer (5 years). When I first got in the industry, I was thirsty for knowledge. I read everything I could, watched videos, and attended classes. This REALLY helped! Then I started hearing about the “rockstar” photographers. I bought into it. Looking at their blogs, they boast a fabulous life. For someone who is a bit shy and naive, this is appealing. I went to two workshops in my first year.

I wont mention the names here but I will be leaving my review on the forum that Gary Fong set up to help the “newbies” not get burned. Though the description for each of the workshops were vague, at least the first one stated it was for branding. I did not go to learn about shooting, ISO, exposure, etc. I went to learn about branding (I guess I got what I paid for except I learned more useful info in a book I bought at B&N). The second workshop was VERY vague in description. However, I decided against the advice of others and signed up. I was intrigued by this persons photography, lifestyle, and talk of high priced weddings. Complete waste of time. I will not go into the details here but I definitely plan to post on http://photoworkshopreview.socialgo.com later today. In my second year, I attended another workshop. Again, a complete waste of time and again, I took nothing from it.

Having said this, I have been burned at least twice by the promises of the “rockstar” photographer. I definitely do not believe that all “rockstar” photographers are hosting worthless workshops. I have heard of several great ones. However, those seem to be becoming rare. It seems every day that I see a photographer advertising on FB or elsewhere that they are running a new workshop. I am not a hateful person and don’t care much for negativity. However, I am relieved that this topic was started.

To address the Scarlett comments (to and from)….As we all know Scarlett hadn’t been a photographer very long at all before she was dubbed a “rockstar” photographer. We all also know that she is anything but technically sound and even to her own admission. She isn’t selling her photography, she is selling a lifestyle. She is a brilliant marketer. If ONE person is complaining about you, there is a problem and you seriously need to address it. I have heard from many people who have attended your Spend the Days and your Workshop that they felt ripped off and didn’t get anything but a few images for their site at best. I have also heard the reason they don’t take this public is for fear of being outed or being labeled mean. That is nonsense. People have a right to voice their experience good OR bad and not be bullied for it. Especially if it isn’t a mean or attacking comment. I get it though, as human beings we want to see the good in everyone. We tend to want to comfort those who are targeted and that is not a bad thing but what if those comments are fact and meant to prevent others from being ripped off/hurt? Let’s face it, $1200 to spend a day is ALOT of money. In this economy especially. $10k+ weddings in Jacksonville? I know at least 3 photographers in Jacksonville that are VERY good and established who average $6k and that is really pushing it. $120k a year shooting along with the $1200 per attendee workshops is a decent amount of money. Your condo, car, furnishings, and wardrobe do not reflect that kind of money. Attendees and potential attendees BELIEVE you. You are a Christian and they TRUST you. You run a blog that details almost every aspect of your life and they feel like they KNOW you. Dont let them down. You said you love teaching, then take the steps to better yourself as a teacher and improve their experience as a paying attendee and don’t mislead!

It is sad when these comments are labeled as total “jealous” or “mean spirited” comments. There is truth to every negative comment (whether fully or partially). I am not in one second jealous of any of those “rockstar” photographers. I am much too shy for that type of recognition. I just want my clients to be happy with their images. I want to learn constantly and grow. That is good enough for me.

Monica R.- his comments do matter when he says she has lied on her blog. Those lies are what make people think she is more than she is and potentially waste their money. If she said on her blog that she purchased her condo from photography and in reality her father did, that is a lie and is extremely deceitful.

Rick and Mary Beth – Well said!

Stephen – I imagine you have decided to stop commenting based on your earlier post “@Cat- Your entitled to your opinion but it will not affect what I teach or how I teach OR how many of the other amazing leaders of this industry teach others”. You clearly have no desire to learn from your mistakes and grow. There is nothing wrong with being humble.

I am not much of a fan of hyprocrisy. Scarlett posted on FB earlier about “rockstar” photographers and how much she dislikes it, etc. Yet, she just recently captioned an image of Stephen shooting and called him a “rockstar”.

These are the reasons people are angry. Yes, I understand why people say these posts are a waste of time and awful, etc. but if people don’t start telling the truth and speaking their mind (in a professional way), this industry is not looking good for the future. I JUST had a bride say to me that she found a local photographer to shoot her wedding for $500 all day with the edited disk. I see photographers with 20+ comments about how amazing their work is when it is clearly awful. Being nice is great but you are doing a disservice to that person by not being honest for the sake of being nice. This is also why the industry is getting flodded with the $500 wedding photographers. Clients are seeing bad work and don’t know what good work is anymore.

One last point. It has nothing to do with this post except that it was mentioned within a post here….I wonder how many photographers are running a legal business. If you make $3200 on a wedding package, $1300 is for product and a second shooter and you are left with $1900 ($47.50 at 40 hours). Income taxes would be over $900. Are you fitting that into the $1300 figure which would leave you with approximately $400 for the second shooter and product? If not, you are actually only makeing about $23 an hour, which is still good depending on what you were doing pre-photography but that is your top package and is not always booked. Stacey Reeves gives an excellent download that helps figure out how much you should be charging. Trust me, if it were being followed, A LOT of photographers would be out of business real quick. KUDOS to Stacey for not charging for this wonderful resource and for truly giving back and working to improve this industry.

@Paul Gotwin: “Kristen – so you don’t have a problem with con artists? Like when little old ladies get ripped off by phony contractors who say they’ll put a new roof on their house for $12,000, take the money and run off? Was that a case of “buyer beware?” Stupid old ladies. Got what they deserve and they’ll learn from that mistake, eh Kristen?”

That comment was stupid. You’re trying to compare apples to oranges (and I’m honestly not sure why you care to get in to this at all?)

But to respond, it depends on what the terms and conditions were GUARANTEED when signing the contract to attend the workshop. I haven’t seen it – so I’m not sure what was promised.

If there was no contract – then yes, Buyer Beware! (too bad little old ladies! Never fork over money without a contract)

If there was a contract, I highly doubt it held any guarantees about how much or what you would learn – because no one could possibly promise that.

So really – there’s no legal issue (like your contractor analogy above) unless Scarlett was in breach of contract based on the guarantee of specific results following the workshop.

Furthermore – even if there WAS a legal issue – it’s not now, nor ever will be, my place to fight it – contractors, photographers or little old ladies – they’re on their own!

“PS: I just realized that I’ve been responding to a fake person (i.e. Paul Gotwin = not real). #massive #waste #of #energy.”

Here’s my thought on how to improve this thread. Carlos, can you set up the required fields to post as mandatory so no one with an alias can post? I notice that you do not require a website address to post. Most professional forums require posting under a real name and have a web site to support that. Can we do this here?

The Pictage Pug fan boys and girls have come to rescue Spartlett and spleven. Hooray, go save us from people telling the truth. Spin for us, wax poetically on our behalf.

Also, be sure to steal other peoples ideas, you don;t need to be creative with pictures just creative in deceit.

Be sure to beef up your portfolio with friends and lie to your clients, pretend they were real shoots.

Photography isn’t very important to you in your business so you don’t really need any talent, just steal.

Most importantly, have a blessed day … Jesus Jesus Jesus

Rick Rosen-You are my hero. hahahahaha! I think we should label you the next rock star! hahahaha!

Honestly who really cares who does what anymore? If it isn’t affecting us personally, our work or our clients. Who cares? Bottom line is people will always follow trends. People will always pay money for something they might not get anything out of or that isn’t what it was put out there to be. I bought a Magic Bullet and that sucker does not chop my onions it liquifies.

As far as the industry goes, there are alot of talented photographers out there.. and there are far more not so talented photographers out there making names for themselves. How is that? I don’t know but it really baffles me. Everyone now-a-days is a photographer. Since I started photography I would say about 10 of my acquaintences/friends are now claiming to be photographers. Thats where I say talent and creativeness comes in.

Someone said that clients are looking for someone to document their moments in life. Which I can’t agree more with. Thats what people hire photographers for. But if they want some run of the mill “photographer” whose pictures look like my 4 yr old running around with a disposable, then by all means. But my opinion is that if you are gonna pay money for something. Don’t you want it to be the best? Someone who has talent and creativeness? Because if I want someone to document regardless of talent or not, I can just had someone a camera and tell them to press this button.

As for those that are paying for workshops… these people hosting said workshops have had to learn somewhere. Your best bet is to find out where. As for photogs selling their trade secrets. That is ridiculous. Why bust your ass for something to set you apart and then sell it to others. Most of the time, these photogs aren’t necessarily going to give all secrets away. Now I know there are some out there that are the real deal. But at the same time…I just can’t fathom spending so much money on something that might not do anything for me or my business. I might already know what I would be learning. Whose to say?

I live in podunkville and have 50+ “photographers” in a 30 mile radius. Of those 50+ my personal opinion is that there are only 4-5 remarkable photogs. I know of one that hosts workshops. Which she should, she is phenomenal. With that said, there are 40+ that shouldn’t attach photographer or anything regarding photography to their name. It’s only a matter of time before they start hosting workshops.

But this thread has morphed into a monster. I don’t agree with the bashing. I think what it boils down to is there are shitty photographers out there making buttloads more money than some of us. There are extremely talented photogs out there that make squat. Who is gonna beat the other to the finish line? Who is gonna use what they have or don’t have to get ahead? Whose going to eat all others out of the competition so that they can live the “Rockstar” life? Who cares? If you want it get it, if you don’t hush. Let’s all worry about perfecting our own craft and not what someone is doing elsewhere. Because eventually client happiness will either rocket you to where you want to be or its going to kick your ass into the hole you dug.

Jen posts:

“Rick Rosen-You are my hero. hahahahaha! I think we should label you the next rock star! hahahaha!”

Are you being serious? ME – a rockstar???

First of all, I don’t have the clothes for it and second, I don’t have the ego for it.

Thirdly, on a more serious note, the newer generation of new wedding photographers seem to flock to the young rockstars. I can see the reasoning behind that to a point, i.e., their marketing to this massive pool of new photographers and the frequent disappointments that brings to the newcomers, as expressed here and on other forums. But I cannot for the life of me understand why they seem to flock to these folks and ignore most of those established professionals who have some history in photography behind them. If I wanted to learn a new craft or business I would seek out the mentors with the most experience who also have a talent and a desire to teach me.

“while we at it, let’s see Jason Aten’s tax returns. sez he’s makin phat stacks only in biz for two years, and can teach you how 2! but naw, his docs would probably be forged:

HTTP://WWW.STATE.MI.US/MDOC/ASP/OTIS2PROFILE.ASP?MDOCNUMBER=614688

think a guy doing time for criminal forgery might stretch da truth about his ends? nawwwww couldn’t be!”

At least Jason has been honest and upfront about his past. He’s learned a hard lesson, and he isn’t trying to fool anyone about who he is.

Stephen on the other hand STILL is lying his way through this. As of the last November Steven had shot his aunt’s wedding, a wedding for which he was paid much less than $1000 and another which he couldn’t afford to pay for a 2nd.

He also endorses any company who will turn around and scratch his back. Starting with Apple’s moble me, and i-phone. He worked for apple at the time, and never mentioned them again after being layed off. Then it was Shoot-Dot-Edit; he made a hugh push whenever the topic came up on a forum, that everyone should be using Shoot-Dot-Edit; Yes he was working for them at the time. I believe he was since fired. Next came Show-it, I guess this one’s paying off a little for him now. I’m not too sure.

It isn’t paying off for Show-It because; although I think its a fabulous product I don’t want anything to do with a company who uses the likes of Steven Knuth to be their mouthpiece.

He said himself- he can’t afford to associate with anyone who doesn’t help his business. So much for giving back

‘Tis funny, Millie…. It must have been pretty easy for you to become a rockstar from the comfort of your parents’ swanky abode. Did it bother you at all that your workshop attendees were probably struggling to pay their mortgages? I hope you add a freeloading session to your next workshop.

Truth is, there are too many phonies out there, second shooting for more successful photographers and fabricating their resumes. They shoot barely enough to keep up the facade so they can go out and sell workshops about how they got rich off photography. And it DOES matter… it’s called FRAUD.

We’re on to you.

Suzy, that was beautiful. Stay true to your passion.

I think people fail to realize that it takes time and hard work. There is no “fast track”. Once you start taking on real wedding clients, it will take about a year for word of mouth to start kicking in. Once word of mouth kicks in, the ball is rolling. You will receive good word of mouth when you provide your clients with images they will treasure for a lifetime, being honest and responsible to yourself and your business, admitting to and making up for your mistakes (we ALL make mistakes), in essence, being responsible to your craft, yourself, and your clients.

Julia, thats right there is no way to “fast track” your photography buisness. If there was a way then why doesn’t Dane do it? Just last year he was selling video phones a la Mary Kay style…C’mon if you fast tracked your photography buisness you wouldn’t need to be selling video phones to friends and family and other photographers.

http://www.amserve.co.uk/about_amserve.html

meanwhile he was pitching askdane.com and fast track photographer
that is not keeping it real folks.

Talking about keeping it real, Jasmine Star talks about this all the time but she herself doesnt keep it real. Her talk at wppi
about ghetto fabulous marketing was a big fat Show it infomercial
a lot of people showed up to listen to her and what a dissapointment she was. We wanted to hear about how she got to where she is at. What specifically did she do? All she talks about is selling yourself and not the photos. So people believe her and now you just have a bunch of her little followers with show it websites with videos of themselves shooting with a shootsac and being all cutesy, how’s that for being differant like David Jay promotes? They are all just little Jasmine clones. Her clients/brides they are “newbies” trying to break into the industry. She sells them her workshop…they book her as the wedding photographer and then get a show it site -JD(works for show it)using there engagment photos and videos of themselves to promote themselves.

Yes keeping it real right??
also she talks about being poor but how did she afford David Jay at 10,000 and if he gave her a discount, don’t they say never do that. Never give discounts or lower your prices?

its all just a big fat sham. She makes most her money now from workshops. 20 people at $900 bucks a pop for 1 day to show them how to “Holla”
I feel sorry for all her little copy cats like Meg Perrotti, The Modern Type and Stepanie Fay and so many others that Drink the koolaid

Joe, you make some very good points. I would like to agree about the “Ghetto Fabulous Marketing” done by Jasmine Star at WPPI. Of all the classes I attended at WPPI, I walked away with the least amount of useful information from her class. I waited three hours in line and still wasn’t first in line. Then another 2 hours of her class. IT was one of the biggest waste of five hours of my time in almost ever. She’s a cute girl, and somehow manages to keep smiling and being polite no matter how many people have surrounded her at any point -I’ll give her that. I also think she’s a pretty great writer. BUT, after seeing that presentation, I wouldn’t recommend a workshop taught by her.

I meant LEIGH not Leah in answering on my previous post. Sorry, too many posts and names to keep up with.

Very interesting reading.

Wow, there are some very “angry” people posting here, who’ve obviously been harboring lots of resentment that they finally got to unleash.

I honestly feel like people can/should say/type things in a constructive way, without being bitchy/rude/mean/offensive about it. But, some people aren’t happy unless they are on “Drama Bahama Island.”

To those who are angry, step away from the computer and get some fresh air. It’ll do ya a world of good!:)

Jeanelle – There are a lot of angry people here. While I would never agree with the personal bashing, I prefer to stick to the facts. The bottom line is that if you paid $1200 for one workshop (because the person claimed to have such a successful business and you were new and wanted a successful business too) and got nothing like you were promised and then further found out the person has LIED about it, you would be a little angry too. That is alot of money to just throw away.

To those who said do your research – I agree with you but if there arent any attendees wanting to speak out for fear of being outed, it is hard to get feedback. I dont know about you all but I tend to trust people until I am given a reason not to. I love to see the best in people. Perhaps that was my downfall. I believed these people were the honest, Christian people they claim to be and wouldn’t take advantage of others. I also believed they would deliver what they promised.

I have watched some talented friends nearly go into bankruptcy because they bought into the rockstar B.S. They thought they could follow fluffy advice and rocket into success. As an admitted business idiot, I just want to thank Gary Fong for giving me the most meat and potatoes, get the bills paid, info on the wedding business I have every heard. If you are mortal and you have to start your business with real clients that exist in your market, I suggest you listen up to Gary Fong’s Album Pre-Design system. I went from wondering how I was going to pay for albums to paying my bills with albums in six months. I had a conversation with another photographer today about pre-design and I think I converted him. He has a young family and is struggling to pay bills also. I’m actually kind of emotional about it because I know he is going to do better for his family if he does this!! What I liked about Gary is that he is not a rockstar, he knows how to merchandise the product and sell it to real clients.

There is a lot of other crap going around that is basically recycled self help garbage. My rule is: If your pictures make me cry I’ll take your creative advice. If you have a proven business record, I’ll take your business advice. If I need personal enrichment, I’ll get a professional therapist.

I am hesitant to do this, but here goes…

What has bothered me about the industry is nothing new. I too had been minding my own business when suddenly someone would buddy up to be my pal and start pointing out what was going on in the industry. In 2007 and 2008, photographers were being taught to look for the photographers in their area who were successful, become friends with them, study their images, study their methods and be like them. Who taught them this? People like David Jay and the OSP community. Before I knew it, I was being dragged onto the stage of the great charade. Suddenly, other people were trying to shoot the way I shoot, or edit the way I edit. It was disturbing and strange. I was also uncomfortable with the added attention from other photographers. Yes, it is nice to be told when someone likes your work but after awhile, it just feels disingenuous. In hindsight, I realize people were being taught to visit other blogs and make comments if they want to get more hits on their own blogs. Actually, I think people are still being taught to do this. No wonder it felt so false.

Finally, I went into hiding. I couldn’t stand it anymore. I couldn’t stand the false attention and I could not stand the feeling of being plagiarized. When I complained about people copying everyone else, the other photographers would say “nothing is original, you don’t own an idea, its just business, everyone does it”.

As a result, I went into hiding, stopped updating my website, stopped blogging and eventually aired my frustrations through satire. Many of you call me bitter. Yes, I was bitter, but not jealous. So, for all of you who don’t understand the “grumpy”, here is my personal perspective. Consider it another facet for a 3 dimensional view into understanding why we are in this mess and why people are upset.

I am sure it is a great mistake to share myself so openly but, who knows, maybe someone will relate to it. I offer up this personal bit of myself for the sake of sharing a greater view of how the marketing and leaders of our industry can ultimately affect its craftsmen/artists/worker bees who supply them with money that was earned by hard work, passion, dedication, love and even faith. I have given you the satire, I have given you the intellect and now I give you the soul…

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&&suggest&note_id=93619819751

Feel free to chew it up and spit it out. (it is very hard to hit submit)

No big surprise that you’d chicken out. More distortion, too. Last year I did 18 weddings, which is close to 5-6, I guess (for people who have a hard time with things like math).

You got nothing, which is why you have to hide.

I’m just curious, have any of you DJ haters actually met him? I’ve had the pleasure of meeting and chatting with many of the leaders of our industry. While Yervant, Joe Buissink, Bambi Cantrell, Mike Colon, etc are all very nice, it was a very surface meeting. However, David Jay is by far the most engaging, kind, caring, compassionate, and generally fun person I have met in the photography industry. I have never in my life (and I’m not just being overly-dramatic here,) met someone who within 30 seconds of meeting them, I felt like they truly cared about me/my career/my heart as I did when I met David Jay. I also have countless friends in the industry (Kenny Kim, Jasmine*, Dane Sanders, etc) who have DJ to thank for their careers taking off.

Kenny Kim was just a wet-behind-the-ears newbie when he happened to be out in CA for a workshop, and got up the courage to call your infamous, self-promoting David Jay and ask him if he could meet him for coffee. DJ was one of the biggest names in the wedding photography world at that time, getting hundreds of emails per day from photographers asking for advice and help. But even with all his money and “fame,” he told Kenny “absolutely, why don’t you come over to my house and I’ll make us some lunch!” He took him in, spent the day with him, advising him and befriending him (this guy who had NOTHING to offer back), and then offered him a place to stay that night. Does a person who’s all about “self-promotion” really have anything to gain by taking an entire 24 hours of their weekend and helping a newbie with nothing to offer?

You’re all welcome to have your opinions about photographers who rise to the top in less time than it took you to complete your formal education in the field of photography. I can imagine it’s hard to have all of the “newbies” taking jobs from you, but making assumptions about David Jay, and other people like him who are trying to make their business about helping those newbies rise to the top, does make you look like a “grumpy.” Maybe try to actually meet and get to know this person before you openly attack his character. If you got to know him you’d see what the rest of us who have met him see, and you’d know what an ass you look like for attacking him.

“I have never in my life (and I’m not just being overly-dramatic here,) met someone who within 30 seconds of meeting them, I felt like they truly cared about me/my career/my heart as I did when I met David Jay.”

LOL.

@ Hector,

You missed the part where Julie told us David Jay cared about her heart as soon as he met her. He must be for real.

@ Julie

And you missed my point. I don’t disagree that he’s nice. Maybe he’s even genuinely nice. But he still doesn’t know shit about photography.

I’m a photographer, and I’m a really nice guy. I’ll be the nicest guy you’ve ever met. Now you need surgery for something? Want me to perform it? I’m a really nice guy! Don’t know anything about doctorin’, but I’m a really nice guy!

See what I’m getting at? Nice does not equal knowledgeable. And that’s the problem…we’ve got a bunch of really nice guys using their niceness to sell you junk. They might even drink their own kool aid and believe it’s not junk….but it’s still junk.

Dear Kristin Weaver,

You are truly an inspiration to artists the world over. You are obviously doing your part in bringing truth and integrity to our industry. As well, everyone should be moved by this proof of honest support for your friend, Scarlett Lillian.

http://www.kristenweaverblog.com/fashion/photofusion-i-the-contest/

I am touched. In honor of my heartfelt gratitude I would like to offer you a STUDIO UGLY T-SHIRT as one of the free prizes you will be giving away to the attendee(s) at your latest workshop. I too would like to participate in your magnanimous endeavor. I do hope we can have dinner sometime.

Warmest regards,

Julia Bailey AKA Studio Ugly

P.S. Can you please define the term “fusion” in relation to your work and what the lucky recipient(s) will experience at your workshop?

wow, julia.

how incredibly self-indulgent. what’s especially obnoxious about the whole “truth” movement is that you assume that most people are just giant morons who need you to save them from themselves.

it’s so ironically narcissistic.

Kay, this is why I will research what is legal, rather than my own moral judgment of right.

I DONT GUARANTEE YOU’LL ACTUALLY GET ANY PHOTOGRAPHS …

julia – i was referring to your “i’m hesitant to do this” post, subsequent facebook note, and prevailing attitude of this “movement”

again – this whole every-other-kid-with-a-camera-can-teach-a-workshop thing is absurd, but a handful of bitter, jaded photographers calling others out is hardly appropriate or productive. you’re just as bad as the “leaders” whose tactics you disdain.

how about we all just deflate the egos and go about our work?

I just read the newer reviews on Leeanns blog I feel literally sick for the lady that did a 1 on 1 session, people this is FRAUD!
my newest tweet sums up MY opinion and My husbands who said the quote.
monicareidphoto

Just sick the more I hear of photogs that have been scammed as @therealbreid ” it’s like they are the Jim&Tammy Faye Bakers of Photog world”

as a photographer residing in the somewhat isolated south west of western australia – i soak up the details of every blog/forum/workshop that is offered. my husband and i are new to the industry, this is our 4th year, with 2009 and 2010 fully booked with 30+ weddings, major commercial clients and ample portrait sessions. we have just opened our first studio, a great achievement we are very proud of, allowing us to return our home to our home and hopefully continue to work our asses off but spend quality time with our family. we have attended a couple of workshops, jerry and yervant, and learnt a vast amount from both. one was expensive – in both time and money – as we both attended, but was worth every cent.
my story…
when we first began in the wedding industry, we contacted a few well known and respected industry peers who did not reply, respond or declined our requests to meet and chat over coffee (my shout). this perplexed me. then one christmas, our good friend and photographer clare day (maybe also considered a newbie?) and i sent bulk invitations to all the said photographers in our area to join us for lunch.
roger and kirsty clark were the only photographers to join us this day. roger has been in the industry for over 30 years (give or take), so i guess he is considered a grumpie (maybe kirsty would agree with me). this incredible award winning photographer (and quite nice man with a dry dry wit lots of tattoos and a loud bike ) with the most insane amount of knowledge, talent, dedication, enthusiasm (the list goes on) openly shared all of the above with us from this lunch onwards. he encouraged us to join the aipp and enter the state and national competitions, providing critique on images we intended to enter.
then there is his wife kirsty, with a marketing prowess that is second to none, and photography talent that is real and emotional and mindblowing. besides all that she manages a family and looks gorgeous on a daily basis.
who needs workshops or seminars or rockstars or conmen?
we have learnt far more and gained immensley from knowing and talking and listening and becoming friends with our industry peers – and we are so very grateful.
i firmly believe i would still be stuck on the rockstar blogs buying every dvd and template that our measly training budget could cope with…had we not become friends with this couple and come to our senses.

Ha! This is hilarious!

“The ‘famous’ wedding photographers that I follow are better than the ‘famous’ wedding photographers that YOU follow!!!”

That’s all that’s happening here. Some of you take this all so serious! It’s really hilarious.

Bobby

After all these years Rock Rosen is still running his mouth on the internet taking any audience he can get his chubby little hands on.

A-MA-ZING

Anyone who has attended a workshop and left feeling ripped off can call the FTC to make a formal complaint.

You can do this without raising any suspicions within the wedding industry.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/microsites/bizopps/index.html

Repeating myself because it is important:

Anyone who has attended a workshop and left feeling ripped off can call the FTC to make a formal complaint.

None of your peers will know you did this. It is anonymous in that regard.

There is a link below the video on the following page for filing a complaint.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/microsites/bizopps/index.html

One thing I learned by years of submitting my photos into anonymous voting and commenting photo contests, is that one needs to detach themselves emotionally from the piece. Whether it be a photo, a bit of writing or any other form of personal expression. Once I put it out there, I am emotionally detached and there is no amount of negative critique that will hurt me.

This is why I believe photographers need the experience of putting their images into anonymous voting and critique type competitions.

-max, by all means, please do. my only connection to kristin weaver is that i posted beneath one of julia’s comments about her – and you got bent about it. hi. my name is kay. i’m from newton, ma. would you like my shoe size or my social security number next?

-chris, i’m not attacking the argument, i DO think there’s an epidemic of mediocrity and inflated sense of self in this industry. i’m questioning the this self-appointed, vulgar, superhero of truth methodology. have you read some of the filth being spewed on twitter? not just by julia – though she is a major culprit. my point is, it’s ineffective to call someone to the mat when you are just as guilty of the offense. narcissism continues to rear its ugly head on both sides.

does this ‘calling people out’ nonsense bring issues to light? i guess. i suppose if you had your blinders and earmuffs on you weren’t already aware of the “rockstar” hype. will this incessant pissing contest resolve anything? doubtful. especially when most of those screaming TRUTH are using fake names.

this shouldn’t be how adults resolve issues. pathetic.

I think at this point we’re beating a dead horse by complaining about it. The question is what are WE as a photography community going to do about it? I’m not sure there is much we can do about it other than be honest about ourselves. Maybe it’s time to move on.

The industry will need fresh people to offer their expertise and advice in order to create a learning community for new photographers.

Some people are creating blogs for workshop reviews already. Excellent idea.

Workshops are not invalid, there simply needs to be a place where consumers can read reviews and make informed decisions. I am sure complaints could also be filed with the better business bureau.

Someone, maybe the PPA, will need to implement a source for helping photographers understand what their legal obligations are when selling workshops, being sponsored by product companies, etc.

Companies also will need to study their legal obligations when using personalities to sell their products.

This is an opportunity for photographers to come together and discuss what resources they feel are needed within the industry. Also an opportunity for photographers to get together and fulfill those needs.

This can be a wonderful community where true professionals come together to help educate each other on maintaining good business practices as well as increasing their technical skills and finding artistic inspiration from each other.

Renee said:

“Rick Rosen – lots of good advice. Appreciate it.”

Thank you Renee.

Rick

This is a good site for finding out how to file deceptive business practices to the FTC, your state attorney general, the Better Business Bureau and your local consumer protection office.

If you feel someone in your local area is running a deceptive business, you can file complaints on a local and state level.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/microsites/whocares/complaint.shtm

Oh I forgot one more;

11-DON’T EVEN think about puttin your picture on the side of a bus and drivin around the country.

hahaaaha this is gettin to me, I need to concentrate on the Easter celebration comin up but this is tooo much fun.

When I think of more I’ll be back.

BOB

COme on Rick you are scared to post this cause you know it’s the truth, I know others that you let post without using their real names.

To the Christian Photographers . . .

“I think much of life as a believer comes down to this: does Christianity modify us, or do we modify Christianity? I don’t mean does grace transform us. I mean, am I a Christianity writer, or a writer dealing with Christianity? Is it better to think in terms of Christian Artist, or is it better to think of Artistic Christians?
Christianity is not some glaze we apply over the top of other things. Christianity is this amazing core that we find happily inside anything touched by anyone by anyone who will welcome the Spirit inside. “Christian” isn’t what modifies us. We modify “Christian”. (Pete Gall – Learning My Name)
If you truly consider yourself to be a ‘Christian-Artist’ and your heart is to glorify God with all you do through your art, that is a wonderful thing. However, if you’re using God to promote or elevate yourself in any way, or to make yourself look better than you really are, (which is a sinner that deserves hell but by the grace and work Christ did on the cross you are now saved) then that is simply pride.

“God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble” 1 Peter 5:5

Let us not be proud with the gifts God has given us, but let us serve one another in love.

Goodness. I’m not gonna lie. I came back after a few days & Holy crap! Maybe someone should start a forum where people that want to speak freely they can. (not my cup o tea, but) If you don’t want your name on it, fine…however if you are going to respond freely-which people should- (negative or positive) AND you are a photographer talking about the fact that you are a photographer, I suggest you do put a link to your name. I’ve actually clicked on a few people here & really love their work…and for the people in the business that truly want to sit down & have coffee (for free! Gasp!) it may be a good way to meet said people. I’m just sayin…

Totally my opinion considering I moved my business half way across the country bc my husband is stationed here…it sure would help to have some other photographers to kick it with at the local coffee shop.

Scarlett Lillian karma has really come back to bite you.

LOL Lauren!

This thread is five years late. The ‘rockstar’ phenomenon started around that time, and it was obviously vacuous.

The true rockstars are those with vast (life and work) experience and knowledge, charge reasonable fees for their seminars, and don’t call themselves ‘rockstars’.

So far I’ve been to seminars by Gary Fong, Denis Reggie, and Huy Nguyen, and it was worth it.

I wish GF did seminars on financial independence. But he already shares some awesome stuff on his blog–get this–for free.

I stay away from anyone who trumpets their ‘Christianity’ for self-promotion purposes.

This is like Perez Hilton wedding photgraphy style.
Scarlett Lillian must be thinking what has hit her.

First Carlos kick butts David Jay.
Then little boy Stephen decides to suck up to the community to improve his street cred.
Little does he know that he and his cougar Scarlett were the intended targets of displeasure.

All the backslapping and pseudo encouragement from their support crew has completely blinded their views …. big disconnect
But lil Stephen just cannot keep his mouth shut.

Scarlett gets dragged in for double bang but shows fake contrition and really doesn’t care as long as she makes cash.
My workshop is awesome because I got a 95% approval rating.
Lee-ann shows her the light but Scarlett is still blinded and fights back with I call your bluff as you are the minority … look at all my glowing reviews.
Her glowing reviews turn out less glowing and she then turns all passive aggesive.
Why did you all give me good reviews if I was really crap.

The biggest joke and irony has to go to lil Stephen who then goes on a Phaunt podcast after professing his eternal love to Scarlett to suggest that they have a workshop during their wedding and get the attenders to photograph their wedding.

How much are you both going to charge for this workshop?

Peace

the links posted on scarlett lillian’s blog are a lame attempt at damage control. those women posted about attending a workshop – keeping it upbeat and positive because in reality, who really wants to beat up on a fellow photographer in public, much less a place clients frequent. I think if we were to call up those women and ask them in depth questions about what they learned and gained from the workshop, it would probably echo leeann’s review.

i still havent forgotten about the videoblog of her driving down a freeway during a rainstorm….!!!!!!!!! oh lord. save us.

I think I’m going to sell some T-shirts that say I wasted more money at the workshop I went to then you!

Or My “workshop” sucked worse than yours!

I knew people could be mean. Of course. Now I look forward to people being nice!

@Tami
If you check the comments on Leeann’s review on her website you’ll see, approximately, 6 girls who attended that admitted to giving a review saying they met “amazing people” but that they were really disappointed. I read through it last night. I don’t know Scarlet personally but if I were the one being criticized for giving a poor workshop and charging a ton for it I think I’d listen to what those critics are saying and make some major changes.

Surprised this hasnt been posted on here yet, but with 320 responses this topic seems to be gaining momentum, http://garyfong1.xanga.com/724680975/the-crowd-is-rioting/

thank you Gary. Love your wisdom, old wise, experienced, and talented one.

Rick,

I think the reason for this blog is to educate people about workshops, and their validity, not to point out what you do not like about the industry.

I’m shocked by some of your bluntness. Women are not the victims here. We all are.

Regardless of gender, we all either want to make it in this business or not. Some are only in it for a little while, and some are lifers. Lets start by helping the ones that want to make a career out of it not make expensive mistakes, but you cant help everyone.

Since you have over 30yrs of experience, why not start by telling us about some positive things a new photographer can do to help him/herself out?

You should be a leader, stop being so grumpy!(dont take that too seriously!-joke)

I’m not sure if you meant it or not, Rick, but I read your latest response as somewhat assumptive of the younger generation. Yes, I was absolutely had by going to the workshop I did, but I’m a smart girl and even smarter now as a result of it. I am not a wedding photographer to make a lot of money, and I do go out to shoot for the purpose of learning and learning more. I do not claim to be an expert. Ever. But I am working hard. So what if we put some time into a website or design? Personally, that’s another aspect of my business that I enjoy. But I do love photography, and would ultimately be doing myself a diservice by choosing to incorporate a business that I would not love years from now.

I don’t know, maybe I just read your tone incorrectly, but I do think you were applyin g generalizations to a young female population that I do not belive is completely applicable. Some of your comments may apply to some people, but just be wary of vast generalization of an entire population. That can be dangerous and destructive to your argument.

Rick
Challenge yourself, come out with me to Death Valley or some other landscape and learn to see and create art.

It has frustrated me a great deal that while I have over thirty years of experience teaching workshops nationally and I am a passionate photographer from the age of ten, I cannot seem to get any interest from the wedding newcomers to learn from me.

And how much would this set me back? 20.00 bucks? When’s your next class?

And to the women out there I think this fella Rick is a kinda puttin you all down, kinda like your stupid, and you don’t know how to spend your money, where I come from, women don’t take too kindly to that kinda talk.

Yours truly “BOB” (this is my incognito name)
(I think we are still free to be incognito if we want to, aren’t we?)

“Bob”

“Yours truly “BOB” (this is my incognito name)
(I think we are still free to be incognito if we want to, aren’t we?)”

Haven’t we been on that topic before? I don’t know any professional forum that does not require posting under a real name and having a web site to back that up. While I agree that some, you obviously, find some comfort in posting under a fake name, I feel that until you (and others) have the professionalism to stand behind your thoughts with a real identity your thoughts should just be dismissed.

Rick

Rick said to Katie Bezelman,

Secondly, while you may have posted under your real name, we have no way to know that because you have no link from your name to your web site. A google search does not even find you.

Ok so why do you talk to Katie and not me?

“BOB”

@ Bobby Earle: do you think david jay would be paying this much attention to you if you did not have a Show It site? probably not. Your booking more weddings because you say you know him to your clients? honestly? they arent booking you because of your skill? dont you think that is kind of sad?

Ok peeps – read most of this and it seems that it is just a place to jump on people for being successful …. I know two people who have posted – Bobby Earle and Rick Rosen

Rick helped me years ago when I was having problems with slideshows – detailed help freely given – some of you ought to listen to him as even though you won’t get ooohs and aaaars saying he head helped you – you will learn

Bobby Earle isn’t a spokesperson for DJ or any of his products – but says it how he sees it – he likes a product he says so – AND one of the few truly humble artists in the wedding industry – and gifted ……

REarly what we are seeing is fools parted with their money … happens in every walk of life – people learn and the frauds disappear. The successful ones (weather you like what they teach) survive.

Newcomers have valuable info to share as well and shouldn’t be dismissed just because they are new – experience doesn’t always bring wisdom.

If what is being said on here by a couple of people is true – they are finished – their fault and we all move on.

I’m not here to network either Bob. However, the comments on here have gone every way under the sun. I continue to come back and read the comments & I completely 100% agree w/ majority of them–especially thinking that someone in business for 2-3 years should not be giving a workshop. I have done 2 workshops & one was just “ok”. I didn’t learn something that turned my business over. I applaud Leeann big time on her review. No matter who it was with…it needed to be said & agree that really starting to review all workshops is a wonderful thing. Not only for a new photographer looking into it, but for the photographer giving it. I’m a positive person majority of the time & it’s out of my element to call out specific names, but I commend the people that do. I guess I just don’t have balls. Maybe eventually I will. Of course, this blog is like crack & I keep coming back to it. Go figure.

Ps–note to self–don’t post on here after taking an ambien.

The Children’s Portrait world also has their fair share of these faux rockstars runnning around charging $1500+ for a mwac to tell you all the “secrets” of the biz. There is one in particular, Skye Hardwick http://www.workofheartphoto.com that took pre-orders of a DVD over two years ago. The DVD is still not out and people who purchased it are out of their money (which if I remember correctly is over $200 each). This woman runs a forms site with poorly written business forms and has more going out of business sales than a shady furniture store that every town has. She resurfaces with something new every couple of months. Posebooks, Workshops, workbooks. If you take a look over at http://www.photogvendors.com and look under business forms and workshops you’ll see all of the nightmares that people have had with this woman. She’s been kicked off of ILP and ProPhotogs as vendor, but yet much like the pied piper she has people following her.

The bulk of her website and blog posts are from her workshop shoots, I’m guessing we could count the number of real clients on one hand for the past year or two.

I really wish PPA would do something about people like her, especially in regards to the DVD and it not being produced and refunds not given. Class action suit anyone? This woman laos likes to throw a trademark symbol after anything and everything. One simple look on the copyright database shows she only really has a couple of actual things trademarked or registered.

I’m sure she’ll try and start with the litigious talk once she sees this….she’ll have her aunt that is a paralegal write up something. YAWN.

Carlos – thanks for creating this blog.

Rick thank you for that last post. I agree with every single thing you’ve said and appreciate the time and thought it must have taken for you to give us all that. Awesome : )

I want to make an observation about this conversation. It seems to me that with Facebook, twitter and all the marketing strategies we might me misplacing a lot of energy that could be better spent. I started teaching workshops to what I consider to be ameture photographers because that was who was networking with me on FB. Potential clients were not finding me, but every wedding photographer in town was my friend within weeks of creating my FB account. All the ametures have logos and branded websites and tons of photos from workshops. Instant success, right? Wrong!

I have talked to lots of photographers who are stuck wondering why their marketing isn’t getting them off the ground, and I’m convinced that it is because they are not merchandising their product. Are you selling loose prints for the price of the paper or are you creating a special presentation? Are you creating albums that are beautiful and desirable or are you punting by giving away the DVD. One thing I have learned is that it is our job to quite physically demonstrate the potential of the product because your client doesn’t have the imagination to do it for themselves.

I just cleared $400 for a days work to design an album for a friend. Her photographer didn’t want to do it and he sold the DVD of images off for cheap. Its no wonder that the album companies are trying to direct market to our under-served clients. They see an opportunity in the market that we are missing. Furthermore, I know that the clients who upgrade their album will also be my biggest marketeers. If they are so in love with the photography that they were willing to upgrade their album by 100%, I know they will come back with qualified referrals. I’m convinced that you are loosing sales, referrals, and success if you are not making equal effort merchandising and marketing.

So who is doing stellar workshops on merchandising photography? That would be a good thing to share if we want this industry to get better.

Joe: I’d add that a lot of luck plays into winners/losers. Hard work and talent don’t guarantee anything (though, you won’t hear that in many workshops).

Love you.

@Rick ….

I think you have summarised the current wedding Photographer situation brilliantly – even in the UK we feel the heat that rude photographers cause – more restrictions in churches and the like.

hey kevin…. love ya too!!

and yep, luck. it does require some. it requires risk taking….however, one needs to place themselves in the way of luck as often as possible. eventually, it will hit you!

@ bobby earle – !!! thanks for the email explaining your comment – i ‘get’ it now.
: )))))

I think Steven is saying he would go to other countries, I can say I’m an international photographer but you see I only live about 20 minutes from the Canadian border so maybe Steven has taken a wedding in Mexico. Give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe you should meet them in person and you may really see they are being young and ambitious |amˈbi sh əs|
adjective
having or showing a strong desire and determination to succeed

No reason to be so mean to a young couple, trying to make it in the photography business.

Don’t you have any Christian mercy RICK?

looking forward to you response

“BOB”

Carlos,

And let’s not forget the vote-rigging for PDN’s most influential photographer list. From what I remember, all the wedding rockstar photogs lobbied their fan base to get them perched above truly influential artists like Richard Avedon and Irving Penn. I’m sorry, but in what universe is the Becker more influential than Annie Liebovitz? But I guess Annie doesn’t have a cool blog, or well established “brand?” Or maybe she just doesn’t twitter enough.

Look, you can easily accuse the arrivistes of the wedding industry of lacking experience, talent and the like. What I can’t stand is their utter lack of humility.

Firstly I speak under an alias as I am not prepared for the backlash: I am not as brave as most of you!

I attended the WPPI conference this year, and was able to see Jasmine Star speak. As I look back on some of the notes I took I am really struck by how lack lustre her message was.

1. Jasmine announced that we should leave our egos at the door. She did not care if some people had just placed in the WPPI photo competition and were excited about placing. Here we were all equals? Really? Because I for one would have been so excited about my print scoring highly enough to make it on the wall. You are up there, ready to give a speech and named one of the TOP 10 wedding photographers of the year and yet you are telling people, who may have just won a ribbon to leave their ego at the door. Apparently this was said to create an even playing field.

2. Ghetto Fabulous Marketing: Definition of Ghetto

A ghetto is formed in three ways:[4]
As ports of illegal entry for racial minorities, and immigrant racial minorities.
When the majority uses compulsion (typically violence, hostility, or legal barriers) to force minorities into particular areas.
When economic conditions make it difficult for minority members to live in non-minority areas.

Ok, so we are clear with that. Onto Jasmines lovely use of the word. She claimed that the wppi members raised eyebrows and had concerns over this word, but she was the “keep it real” and stated, that’s her thing and she will say it to illustrate she came from nothing. Honestly, I was pretty offended, and ever “hola”, “word” etc. she used I cringed inside. If keeping it real is of the utmost importance to her, then claiming “ghetto” is a lie and thus unreal. By offended, perhaps I should clarify it was more annoying and also it seemed out of place. Although, people were encouraged to “hola” back, and a few did, you could feel some of the uncomfortableness in the crowd.

Perhaps there was a legitimate reason why the members of WPPI were concerned over her use of the word Ghetto.

3. STAR claims no cash. counter argument. you had DJ as your wedding photographer, plus your husband was a lawyer. You live in Orange County. Now for a quick clip from Will Ferrell
http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/will-ferrell-on-conan-liar/3516063889/?icid=VIDURVCOM07

4. Class of 2010: Young women carried there pocka dot shoot sac bags with a cute tag stated “class of 2010″. I never got one and I am glad. Although the shoot sac is great, I don’t want to be a sheep. After the speach, they flocked and swarmed her, taking photos, attempting to get a glimpse, hoping to God some part of Jasmine would rub off on them, thus transforming them into there amazing people.

5. NOT ONCE WAS TAKING GREAT PHOTOS MENTIONED!

6. Keep it real means having a great website and marketing yourself. If you build it, they will come. The dream is for you to claim. Although I agree personality has a lot to do with success, there are far too many photographers out there who are not good at photograph, but there flashy website gets them clients. Blog readers, usually are not clients they are fellow admirers and thus continuously creating and placing that person hiring on the platform. Other photographers have placed J* there, and even though her clients are most likely super happy, I can’t help but feel sad for the lost art which has become the actual photography.

7. I am a twenty something photographer, 4 years into the business. I work so hard and I am booked up for 2010. I have never thought about giving a workshop because I am such a rookie, its not even funny. I also have never attended an over priced workshop by someone who is not even a great photograph. My favorite photographer for weddings is Elizabeth Messina. I heard her speak and she is a true artist, who warrants respect and recognition. Plus she shoots film! Amazing.
I too started with film, developed my own photos and eventually moved onto digital. However, she inspires me to go back to my roots.

Messina inspires me to grow as an artist, Star makes me want a better website? If it wasn’t for her attractive and rich couples, I don’t believe there would be a lot of substance to her work.

8. Workshops that inspire and teach are one thing. Workshops that create clones are EVERYWHERE> its kinda sickening.

9. In the end, I will continue to work hard and grow my business, and now that this forum is out here, I will feel WAY better about doing it the way I have been and avoiding the sheep mentality.

Cheers….

“My mom and I attended a sunrise service at the beach yesterday for Easter. As we watched the sun rise on the day that Jesus rose from the grave, I was thinking about how just three days before He was persecuted, mocked, made fun of, called names, called a liar, slashed in public, crucified, spit on, and the list goes on.”

Wow Scarlett!!! This what is written in her blog. Maybe it is too obvious but is she trying to compare herself to Jesus Christ. She really needs to grow up. Everything does not revolve around you. Remember your calamity is self inflicted

@Lauren Harris… I SAW THAT TOO and thought she was trying to compare herself to Jesus Christ as well!!!! Shameful is what that is. And, it really shows what kind of person she is since she has yet to compensate or directly try to solve any of the hurt feelings of many who paid her. Leeann stated that she hasn’t heard anything from her except the comments on her review and here.

http://www.leeannmariephotography.com/for-photographers/scarlett-lillian-workshop/

Rick

“Bob”

I am not going to engage with you

TOO LATE your already did ; )

Julia Bailey – you need a reality check. You and your crew are behaving like the nerdy ‘Goth’ kids in junior high who hung out behind the gym and ridiculed the popular kids. Maybe the popular kids deserve it, but you’re taking it all a bit too seriously…which is somewhat hypocritical because your website (studio ugly) encourages people to NOT take life so seriously. Let the popular kids do their thing and you do your thing. Move on.

For what it’s worth, I have no dog in the hunt. [My cousin is in the photography world and he was showing me this while at his house on Easter}.

I was most humored by how seriously Julia and her crew treat photography as art. One guy actually tried to equate picking a photographer with picking a physician. LOL…GIVE ME A BREAK! Calling yourself an artist is like a pool player calling himself an athlete…ok, maybe they’re kind of an athlete as they occasionally show their “sport” on ESPN. But they’re not an athlete like Michael Jordan is an athlete. Julia, you’re not an artist like a skilled painter is an artist…not even close. Your medium is one of the lowest forms of art (and easiest forms of art to grasp); further, wedding photography is one of the lowest forms of photography. Alright, maybe putting glue on cardboard and sprinkling glitter over it is a little lower. My guess is that the popular kids have realized that the barriers to entry for your craft (cough…”art”) are incredibly low. Anyone with $3000 and a photoshop program can quickly replicate what you do with 12 months worth of practice. That’s why knowing how to market yourself is just as important, if not more important, as knowing how to push the little red thingie on top of the camera.

@Lauren Harris… I was perfectly content to read all the drama that was going on here without adding my two cents, until you wrote this. I’m sorry, I agree with a lot that has been said here and I love that this discussion is *mostly* civil, but someone earlier in the comments said to leave the religion stuff out and I think you should really have listened to that. I do not think that ALL these so-called “rockstars” are slapping Jesus on their brand as part of some marketing scheme. Being Christian does not mean being perfect. We make mistakes, we mess up too. This weekend is the biggest, most important weekend in the whole year for Christians. Do I buy everything Scarlett says? Probably not. But do I believe she was comparing herself to Jesus? After reading her blog and the rest of what she wrote, no, I don’t. The whole POINT of Easter is that Jesus DID go through all that. Just because people are taking time out of their schedule to use her as an example of what they don’t like RIGHT NOW doesn’t change the fact that 2010 years ago Jesus “was persecuted, mocked, made fun of, called names, called a liar, slashed in public, crucified, spit on, and the list goes on”. I’m not standing up for Scarlett in business practice, clearly there are unhappy clients and that needs to be addressed. But as a Christian, yes, I will stand up for her.

Again, I want to emphasize my point that I love that this conversation has been mostly mature, and I like that this is being discussed in general, but please, stop with the religious attacks.

dangit, I hate typos…sorry.

@Robert Madrid

First, let me apologize for comments regarding photography as the lowest form of art. That was a bit below the belt.

No, I am not a photographer. But I am a fashion designer. In certain respects I can relate to what you’re going through. There are many that have entered my field and a few are “rockstars.” Despite the fact that I’ve been in the this industry for over 15 years, there are younger folks who are good looking and charasmatic and getting further ahead than I am. They’re getting on shows like Project Runway and making an instant splash even though I think I have more talent than they have. Nonetheless, I would never think of lashing out at these people and stating that they’re not real artists and I am. Even though what I do is creative, takes years of experience, and many of my heroes find their work in museums of art, I would never pound the table and proclaim what I do is art. We fashion designers have long ago gone through our renaissance of sorts and admit we’re not really artists – we’re just creative designers who try to make our clients look better than they otherwise do naked. Perhaps, you photographers are going through your renaissance now; your industry is changing. Despite your protestations, there are many that can do what you do (or least come very, very close such that a lay person like me can’t tell the difference). In such an environment (and this applies to both of us), how we market becomes more important than our actual work. I know you and Julia Bailey are resisting this but your fight is futile.

Take singing and American Idol. These kids have OK talent…but what propels these no-names to become instant household names? They’re using the networking and marketing platform that American Idol provides. The really good singers (“artists” if you will) that are perhaps unattractive with no personality get brushed aside. They can fight it; they can start websites that ridicule the good-looking newbie not-so-talented singers but it will have no meaningful impact. We live in world where beauty and connections go along way. And this truth, whether it’s good or bad, makes people like Julia Bailey crazy. She can’t hang and is being surpassed by better looking and better connected people. So she lashes out…she ridicules…she even wants these popular kids arrested for fraud for daring to say that they’re as good an “artist” as she is. In the end, her fight is futile…because she’s fighting human nature. Looks, personality and connections are what matters today. And, it’s not just photography, it’s all creative industries…music, design, motion pictures, television.

And yet, here’s little Julia trying to buck this whole system by hiding behind her purity of art thing – it’s sad actually.

@Robert Madrid

And by the way – I made more typos than you – sorry

Hi Stacey! Great to see you here.

While I was not there of course I do remember the huge controversy over David Jay’s no show. As someone who has presented many seminars and likes to think of himself as something of an industry veteran I was absolutely astounded by his behavior. From the report there were about 100 photographers sitting in the ballroom waiting to hear DJ’s presentation. Some had traveled over 3 hours by car (each way) to be at that presentation. On his blog I was reading his, what I felt were obnoxious vacuous, justifications for turning his back on those 100 photographers who had paid money to see him. He was blogging his reasons while the photographers were sitting downstairs! Remember that he invited himself on to that tour by the other two photographers. In my opinion, no matter what the reasons were and whether they were justified or not, he should have respected those 100 photographers by giving his presentation. Whatever the issues were (and I am sure there are two sides to that story) he could have settled that quietly in the background and if necessary pulled out of the tour’s future dates. But to handle it like he did with those 100 photographers already waiting downstairs just goes, in my opinion, to show what Mr. Jay’s real feelings are regarding his “lovecat” image. He then went on his forum and elsewhere in a smear campaign about the two photographers who organized that tour. The more he tied to justify his actions the more, IMO, he dug himself into a deeper hole. It still amazes me today that he has managed to cleanse his reputation back to the “lovecat” that he tries to promote.

As you may recall, I have had other run ins with DJ who did everything he could on six different forums and elsewhere to stop me from discussing slideshows and mention FotoMagico which competes directly with his ShowIt software.

What is most valuable about this thread is the disrobing of some of our industry icons to expose them for what their real motivations are. We can do that most successfully, like you and many others have, by relating real world experiences with some of these folks.

I hope for everyone’s sake, theirs included, that they are following the sentiments expressed here. Unfortunately, I think most of them will just ignore this or dismiss it as “trooling” and continue on, egos inflated by those followers that they still have now and in the future.

Change in this profession is sorely needed and it can begin with the first steps expressed here by so many.

Rick

My take on the workshop situation is this: it ‘sounds’ like the participants were taken advantage of.

SL wants to make a lot of $$$ (that’s what business people do, so nothing wrong on the surface). So, she brainstormed how to do that… Have the participants pay for all the costs associated with the following, and add a ‘fee’ for herself:

Hiring former winner of American’s Next Top Model;
Cost for Bui Brothers to fly to JAX, plus their production costs…
Cost for Stephen to fly to JAX (perhaps… No proof that he didn’t pay his own way, but I doubt it);
Other expenses.

If I had been there, I would have been furious about:

Being placed in the forced and awkward situation of having to be part of her DVD production (by the way, did everyone sign a release form? If not, I would make sure I wasn’t used/represented in any way in the DVD or promotional video unless PAID);
Having workshop leader’s boyfriend appear (taking away time and attention from what I paid for);
Lack of punctuality and preparation;
Workshop leader shooting for her own portfolio.

It seems there was pre-meditated audacity to create a DVD/sales piece under the guise of a ‘workshop.’ I think it’s okay to build in the cost for paying for the model, but they should in NO WAY have to offset the costs of the video production.

From Wikipedia: greed (Latin, avaritia), also known as avarice or covetousness, is, like lust and gluttony, a sin of excess. However, greed (as seen by the church) is applied to a very excessive or rapacious desire and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

It shows an overly aggressive (yet unfortunately naïve) business approach, lack of professionalism, lack of business ethics and overall poor taste. All because of greed – one of the seven cardinal sins.

Making friends is great, but not for $1,200-$1,500, and not being ‘used’ to produce a DVD/promo piece.

Leeann did a commendable job of an ‘objective’ review. And it took courage to do so. Well done!